WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:01.560 Matt: All right, we're recording. 00:00:01.564 --> 00:00:02.820 I wanna show you this though. 00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:03.390 Okay. 00:00:03.394 --> 00:00:06.210 Now that I'm on your wifi, I found something. 00:00:07.260 --> 00:00:08.550 Greg: I guarantee I already know what it is 00:00:08.590 --> 00:00:12.210 Matt: is for everyone watching or listening or whatever, like, I'm with Greg 00:00:12.210 --> 00:00:17.880 Koberger, founder ceo readme.com, pretty stoked that you guys got that domain name. 00:00:18.780 --> 00:00:20.520 And we're in the Read Me Office. 00:00:20.520 --> 00:00:21.030 Greg: Yes, we are. 00:00:21.260 --> 00:00:22.050 Matt: Readme HQ 00:00:22.590 --> 00:00:23.010 Greg: Yeah. 00:00:23.100 --> 00:00:23.490 One of two. 00:00:23.590 --> 00:00:24.360 One of two offices. 00:00:24.390 --> 00:00:25.230 Matt: You have two offices? 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:25.500 Yeah. 00:00:26.040 --> 00:00:26.250 Okay. 00:00:26.250 --> 00:00:27.240 I'm trying to find this video. 00:00:27.290 --> 00:00:28.550 I'm gonna just play this here. 00:00:29.180 --> 00:00:30.200 Have you seen this since? 00:00:30.205 --> 00:00:30.500 No. 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:31.910 I watched this the other day. 00:00:31.910 --> 00:00:36.440 So what this is, is this is the video of us attempting to get into 00:00:36.440 --> 00:00:39.380 Y Combinator for DocHub, which eventually is now, I guess read me. 00:00:39.770 --> 00:00:40.670 I'm just gonna play it. 00:00:40.805 --> 00:00:44.278 Greg: I I, Zuckerberg, Matt, I used the Winklevoss in the situation. 00:00:45.206 --> 00:00:45.573 Matt: Yeah. 00:00:45.573 --> 00:00:46.513 I don't have a twin though. 00:00:48.918 --> 00:00:50.158 Greg: Oh, I was so young. 00:00:50.563 --> 00:00:50.863 Matt: Yeah, 00:00:50.863 --> 00:00:51.403 we were much 00:00:51.568 --> 00:00:51.928 Greg: full of 00:00:51.928 --> 00:00:52.198 hope. 00:00:52.273 --> 00:00:52.603 Matt: at me. 00:00:53.563 --> 00:00:54.283 I even dressed up. 00:00:54.298 --> 00:00:54.928 Greg: you look like your son. 00:01:01.573 --> 00:01:02.083 Matt: So cringe 00:01:18.853 --> 00:01:19.533 It's still true, I think. 00:01:19.648 --> 00:01:20.938 Greg: yeah, probably more than that. 00:01:35.923 --> 00:01:36.593 Matt: and we make 00:01:37.643 --> 00:01:39.133 Greg: You have a lot of friends you had to brag. 00:01:39.133 --> 00:01:39.703 We have a lot of friends. 00:01:39.793 --> 00:01:40.793 Matt: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was 00:01:53.353 --> 00:01:53.683 Greg: Wow. 00:01:53.683 --> 00:01:54.463 We nailed that. 00:01:56.293 --> 00:01:56.623 Oh no, 00:01:56.713 --> 00:01:57.733 Matt: you were like, well, that was good. 00:01:57.738 --> 00:01:58.183 Yeah. 00:01:58.273 --> 00:01:59.533 Well that wasn't our first take. 00:01:59.923 --> 00:02:01.513 Greg: That was probably our 48th take. 00:02:01.903 --> 00:02:02.023 Matt: Yeah. 00:02:02.023 --> 00:02:02.383 I don't know. 00:02:02.388 --> 00:02:06.248 We, we did a few of them and we kept messing up , it was also during RIT48. 00:02:08.038 --> 00:02:08.788 Greg: That makes sense. 00:02:09.598 --> 00:02:11.368 so you were living, where were you living at that point then? 00:02:11.428 --> 00:02:12.448 Matt: I was still in college. 00:02:13.482 --> 00:02:16.828 right, I, I remember the first, when you called me, I was in the car. 00:02:16.828 --> 00:02:17.758 I was, it was nighttime. 00:02:17.758 --> 00:02:18.958 I don't know where I was driving from. 00:02:19.108 --> 00:02:19.318 Yeah. 00:02:19.828 --> 00:02:23.958 but I had just gotten like a car phone thing, like a, you could like Bluetooth 00:02:23.988 --> 00:02:25.338 in the car and I was like, this is sick. 00:02:25.548 --> 00:02:27.858 And you called me and was like, oh, sweet, I can hit the button and answer it. 00:02:28.158 --> 00:02:30.078 And then you were like, Hey, I got this idea, like, do you 00:02:30.083 --> 00:02:30.828 wanna do this thing with me? 00:02:30.833 --> 00:02:31.338 And I was like, what 00:02:32.718 --> 00:02:35.388 Greg: I, so I got into YC eventually, obviously. 00:02:35.428 --> 00:02:36.388 But no, obviously, sorry. 00:02:36.388 --> 00:02:36.688 I got into 00:02:36.898 --> 00:02:37.108 Matt: Wow. 00:02:37.198 --> 00:02:37.768 Burn, 00:02:37.978 --> 00:02:39.598 Greg: obviously once I ditched Matt. 00:02:39.604 --> 00:02:41.648 Not, I got into YC eventually, but like, that was one of the worst days 00:02:41.648 --> 00:02:42.668 of my life was when we were waiting. 00:02:42.673 --> 00:02:45.910 So we, we got, like, we signed up for, we got an interview Matt and I did, and 00:02:45.910 --> 00:02:49.628 we it was like 8:00 AM the interview was, and it was like 10 minutes long. 00:02:49.718 --> 00:02:51.128 And like they don't tell each that night. 00:02:51.128 --> 00:02:52.568 So like, we just 00:02:52.568 --> 00:02:52.958 like, 00:02:54.128 --> 00:02:55.058 that was the worst day of my life. 00:02:55.058 --> 00:02:56.858 We were just like nervous the entire day. 00:02:56.888 --> 00:02:57.218 That was 00:02:57.398 --> 00:02:59.558 Matt: I think, I think episode two or three, we talked about 00:02:59.558 --> 00:03:01.478 this, but, but no, you're right. 00:03:01.478 --> 00:03:07.268 And like we tried , so the way it works, and I mentioned this before, 00:03:07.268 --> 00:03:09.248 if you get an email, it's bad if you get a phone call, it's good. 00:03:09.728 --> 00:03:10.208 And. 00:03:11.078 --> 00:03:12.128 It's the waiting period. 00:03:12.128 --> 00:03:13.268 That's actually the worst. 00:03:13.273 --> 00:03:13.448 Yeah. 00:03:13.688 --> 00:03:14.738 And we were like, what do we do? 00:03:14.738 --> 00:03:15.698 How do we kill this time? 00:03:15.698 --> 00:03:17.198 Like we tried going on roller coasters. 00:03:17.198 --> 00:03:18.008 The park was closed. 00:03:18.008 --> 00:03:18.878 We tried to get massages. 00:03:18.878 --> 00:03:19.478 They were booked up. 00:03:19.478 --> 00:03:20.318 Greg: No, we got massage. 00:03:21.187 --> 00:03:21.608 Matt: What 00:03:21.698 --> 00:03:21.998 Greg: that? 00:03:22.058 --> 00:03:22.408 No. 00:03:22.448 --> 00:03:22.628 Yeah. 00:03:22.628 --> 00:03:23.528 So the massage was booked up. 00:03:23.528 --> 00:03:23.978 You're right. 00:03:24.068 --> 00:03:25.658 But then you found this weird 00:03:25.868 --> 00:03:26.828 Matt: the foot massage place. 00:03:26.828 --> 00:03:27.044 Yeah. 00:03:27.158 --> 00:03:27.998 Greg: it was so weird. 00:03:27.998 --> 00:03:30.788 It was like, just like, it was just people sitting in chairs next to each other. 00:03:30.788 --> 00:03:32.262 It was like a leg massage place. 00:03:32.318 --> 00:03:34.128 Matt: ever seen like, like rush hour. 00:03:35.292 --> 00:03:36.208 was, it's like that 00:03:36.678 --> 00:03:38.628 Greg: I hate massages, but like, it was something to do 00:03:38.628 --> 00:03:39.588 and I couldn't be on my phone. 00:03:39.588 --> 00:03:40.008 So that was a good 00:03:40.178 --> 00:03:41.238 Matt: Oh, I got your mind off of 00:03:41.268 --> 00:03:42.018 Greg: Yeah, exactly. 00:03:42.103 --> 00:03:43.740 So when I did get in same thing happened. 00:03:43.821 --> 00:03:45.150 And I went to a bar right away. 00:03:45.150 --> 00:03:46.080 I went to Molly McGee's 00:03:46.145 --> 00:03:47.865 Matt: we eventually went, didn't, isn't that where we went? 00:03:47.940 --> 00:03:47.941 Greg: so. 00:03:47.946 --> 00:03:50.540 Probably that's where I, that's where I go to get good or bad news. 00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:54.980 And like I, when I found out, so they called me in the bathroom and like, cuz 00:03:55.100 --> 00:03:57.560 I was, I was in the bathroom and they called and I was like, in my mind I 00:03:57.560 --> 00:03:59.660 was like, oh my God, if I don't pick up now they're gonna like not call back. 00:03:59.660 --> 00:04:00.350 Like I knew what it was. 00:04:00.350 --> 00:04:02.390 So I like picked it up in the bathroom, which is weird. 00:04:02.430 --> 00:04:05.190 So I picked up in the bathroom and like my nose started to bleed. 00:04:05.190 --> 00:04:06.570 That's how fucking stressful it was. 00:04:06.640 --> 00:04:08.731 So I didn't mean to swear, but I was, my nose started to 00:04:08.731 --> 00:04:09.991 bleed like in the bathroom. 00:04:09.991 --> 00:04:11.311 I've never had that happen before or after. 00:04:11.491 --> 00:04:13.081 My nose just started to like gush blood. 00:04:13.081 --> 00:04:15.751 I was so stressed out like that time. 00:04:15.811 --> 00:04:16.711 Matt: So apply to yc. 00:04:16.711 --> 00:04:17.491 It'll make your node bleed 00:04:17.631 --> 00:04:18.071 Greg: Yeah. 00:04:18.071 --> 00:04:18.311 Stuff 00:04:18.331 --> 00:04:18.571 Matt: Is that 00:04:18.991 --> 00:04:20.221 Greg: So then I don't think you know the story. 00:04:20.221 --> 00:04:22.503 So the next day I'm out to dinner to kinda celebrate. 00:04:22.544 --> 00:04:25.304 Cause we gotten in and like Matt said, they call, if you get in, they 00:04:25.694 --> 00:04:27.014 email you a rejection if you know. 00:04:27.224 --> 00:04:29.624 And like the nice thing always is they actually give you a really good rejection. 00:04:29.624 --> 00:04:31.904 Like they don't just say like, it's not automated one, like it's a real person 00:04:31.909 --> 00:04:34.604 who messaged you and is like really like empathetic and nice about it. 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:36.869 So I got a phone call when I actually got in. 00:04:37.139 --> 00:04:39.820 So I went to dinner the next night to like, celebrate and I get a phone call 00:04:39.880 --> 00:04:41.860 and I know what the number is cause it's the same numbers the day before. 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:45.160 So I pick it up and it's Michael Sebel and he's like, Hey, is 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:46.690 this Greg Berger from Read Me? 00:04:46.690 --> 00:04:47.500 I was like, yeah. 00:04:47.500 --> 00:04:47.860 And he's like 00:04:48.520 --> 00:04:48.960 Matt: made a mistake. 00:04:48.975 --> 00:04:50.205 Greg: like, I'm so, yeah, he did. 00:04:50.205 --> 00:04:53.265 He's like, he said, I'm so sorry, this has never happened before. 00:04:53.265 --> 00:04:55.395 We made a mistake and I just really wanna apologize. 00:04:55.755 --> 00:04:57.465 And I'm like, oh no, 00:04:57.555 --> 00:04:58.575 Matt: this is an April Fools? 00:04:58.635 --> 00:05:00.795 Greg: So he's like, he's going, he's like, this has never happened before. 00:05:00.795 --> 00:05:01.545 We have new software. 00:05:01.545 --> 00:05:02.895 Like this is, we've never made this mistake before. 00:05:02.895 --> 00:05:03.945 I'm so incredibly sorry. 00:05:04.305 --> 00:05:06.975 And I'm like, oh, okay. 00:05:07.395 --> 00:05:11.005 And then he goes, oh, congratulations, you're in YC. 00:05:11.025 --> 00:05:12.480 And I'm like, I know. 00:05:12.660 --> 00:05:13.860 And he's like, what do you mean? 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:14.100 You know? 00:05:14.100 --> 00:05:16.170 And I was like, you guys called me last night. 00:05:16.380 --> 00:05:17.340 He's like, oh, thank God. 00:05:17.400 --> 00:05:19.470 So he was apologizing cause he thought he didn't call us back. 00:05:19.590 --> 00:05:21.990 So he was apologizing because he thought he just never got back 00:05:21.995 --> 00:05:22.860 to us when he had gotten in. 00:05:22.860 --> 00:05:25.740 But like their new system, he hadn't marked down that he had called us. 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:27.930 And I'm thinking, cause I remember obviously I remember 00:05:27.930 --> 00:05:29.310 that he called us, let us in. 00:05:29.430 --> 00:05:31.620 I'm thinking he's calling to like revoke it, 00:05:31.805 --> 00:05:32.155 Matt: Oh, 00:05:32.220 --> 00:05:35.400 Greg: So we, like, he was apologizing cuz he was like, if I, if I, if if it 00:05:35.400 --> 00:05:38.130 was true that he had not call me, then the apology would've been like, yeah, I'm 00:05:38.130 --> 00:05:39.870 so sorry we like didn't get back to you. 00:05:40.030 --> 00:05:41.140 But he didn't say that explicitly. 00:05:41.140 --> 00:05:43.270 He was just like, I'm so sorry, this has never happened before. 00:05:43.405 --> 00:05:45.395 Matt: Has YC revoked acceptances? 00:05:46.070 --> 00:05:46.340 Greg: I dunno. 00:05:46.610 --> 00:05:47.210 I doubt it. 00:05:47.210 --> 00:05:49.340 Like it's just for like, I just, that's what was going through my head is 00:05:49.630 --> 00:05:50.420 like, why it's 00:05:50.420 --> 00:05:53.210 like so little money for them for like the bad like 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:53.750 press. 00:05:53.780 --> 00:05:54.230 even. 00:05:54.256 --> 00:05:55.634 So like, yeah, I don't think they ever have. 00:05:56.999 --> 00:05:58.529 But I don't know, like maybe something's changed. 00:05:58.559 --> 00:05:59.939 Maybe, or like, maybe like things changed. 00:05:59.939 --> 00:06:00.359 I don't know. 00:06:00.359 --> 00:06:01.879 Like, I'm sure there's situations where they would, but it 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:02.459 would've to be pretty high bar. 00:06:02.459 --> 00:06:02.669 I think it 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:03.359 would've to be like, 00:06:03.599 --> 00:06:04.949 it wouldn't just be like, oh, we've changed our mind. 00:06:04.949 --> 00:06:07.859 It would have to be like, like, oh, we found out this really bad 00:06:07.859 --> 00:06:09.119 thing about this person type thing. 00:06:09.389 --> 00:06:11.729 Cause they've only like kicked like three or four people out ever. 00:06:11.729 --> 00:06:13.319 And like every single one deserved it. 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:13.649 Yeah. 00:06:13.779 --> 00:06:14.199 But 00:06:14.234 --> 00:06:16.904 Matt: Well they do that in colleges if you lie on your application. 00:06:17.099 --> 00:06:17.609 Greg: yeah, I could see 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:18.539 'em like that maybe. 00:06:18.539 --> 00:06:19.709 But like, even then 00:06:20.219 --> 00:06:20.999 they don't research you. 00:06:20.999 --> 00:06:21.809 So how would they even know that? 00:06:21.809 --> 00:06:23.699 Like, you'd have to like very blatantly lie. 00:06:23.781 --> 00:06:24.471 Because like, they don't, 00:06:24.471 --> 00:06:26.001 like, it's just 10 minutes you 00:06:26.001 --> 00:06:26.811 get in and they just move 00:06:26.811 --> 00:06:27.921 on and like, yeah. 00:06:27.921 --> 00:06:28.221 I don't know. 00:06:28.291 --> 00:06:28.681 So I don't think 00:06:28.681 --> 00:06:28.921 so, 00:06:28.936 --> 00:06:30.076 Matt: but yeah, I don't really know. 00:06:31.881 --> 00:06:34.021 Greg: I, I actually know, I'm pretty sure they would because they're 00:06:34.021 --> 00:06:35.731 really big on not pulling term sheets. 00:06:35.731 --> 00:06:38.041 And like, that's one of the biggest things that they, like, one of the big 00:06:38.101 --> 00:06:41.491 reasons to do YC is because they get really mad if a VC pulls a term sheet. 00:06:41.886 --> 00:06:42.236 Matt: Oh. 00:06:42.391 --> 00:06:44.311 Greg: and like one of the nice things about being NYC is like, kinda 00:06:44.316 --> 00:06:46.001 like a weird, like, you know not. 00:06:46.721 --> 00:06:49.301 Entrepreneurs in a union, but it's kinda like, like a weird like union type thing 00:06:49.301 --> 00:06:52.601 where it's like no one will pull a term sheet on, for the most part, won't pull 00:06:52.601 --> 00:06:56.081 term sheet on YC company because like you don't wanna get NYC's bad side. 00:06:56.139 --> 00:06:59.601 So either, either a union or a mafia, depending on how you wanna look at it. 00:06:59.601 --> 00:06:59.901 But 00:06:59.901 --> 00:07:00.351 one of the two. 00:07:00.471 --> 00:07:03.471 Matt: for, so for those who, of the listeners that don't know or 00:07:03.471 --> 00:07:06.771 aren't like entrepreneurs are in the startup world, what's a term sheet? 00:07:06.824 --> 00:07:07.077 Greg: Oh yeah. 00:07:07.077 --> 00:07:09.997 Term sheet is so when you. 00:07:10.762 --> 00:07:13.173 Go to raise money you'll pitch the company with like, what, however 00:07:13.178 --> 00:07:14.433 you end, do you pitch the vc. 00:07:14.433 --> 00:07:16.306 And like, it's usually one or two or three meetings. 00:07:16.306 --> 00:07:19.345 And usually they, it's like a partner or an associate, and then they like 00:07:19.345 --> 00:07:21.585 layer on more and more people and you're kind of repitching and repitching. 00:07:21.585 --> 00:07:23.845 And finally, like every VC firm has a different way of doing it, but every VC 00:07:23.850 --> 00:07:25.735 firm gives your term shit at the end. 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:26.745 And basically it's a 00:07:26.825 --> 00:07:28.619 agreement that kind of covers everything. 00:07:28.619 --> 00:07:31.273 So it's basically the contract that you would sign in order 00:07:31.453 --> 00:07:32.353 to accept money from them. 00:07:32.353 --> 00:07:34.490 So a term sheet will have like terms obviously. 00:07:34.538 --> 00:07:36.811 So it'll talk about the how much equity they're getting. 00:07:36.823 --> 00:07:39.126 So like a lot of weird rules, I just make sure. 00:07:39.206 --> 00:07:42.536 So a clean term sheet is basically just, we'll give you X dollars 00:07:42.536 --> 00:07:44.546 for why a number of shares. 00:07:46.001 --> 00:07:47.861 And it's called a clean term sheet, which means there's not a lot of 00:07:47.861 --> 00:07:51.851 like stuff now there's like less clean term sheets, which, you know, 00:07:51.851 --> 00:07:52.991 they can make any rules they want. 00:07:52.991 --> 00:07:56.081 So like, there's things like liquidation preferences that can go into it. 00:07:56.081 --> 00:07:59.111 Liquidation preferences like VCs get to take out, you know, before anyone else 00:07:59.111 --> 00:08:02.561 gets money, they get to take out like two x and what eventually happened is 00:08:02.561 --> 00:08:05.111 you sell your company or your IPO and you have to like start turning, converting 00:08:05.111 --> 00:08:08.135 all the equity and these like, you know, promises into like real money. 00:08:08.215 --> 00:08:08.855 You have to start doing the math. 00:08:08.855 --> 00:08:11.915 So it's like, okay, so this term she gets presence over this one cause 00:08:11.915 --> 00:08:14.375 it came first, or this one came second, or it overrides this one. 00:08:14.375 --> 00:08:16.962 And like, or like, you know, then you have employee contracts 00:08:16.962 --> 00:08:17.872 and employees at equity as well. 00:08:17.872 --> 00:08:19.762 And that's not term she, but they have like equity. 00:08:19.818 --> 00:08:23.118 So like that all kind of goes together and like, this is gigantic math problem 00:08:23.118 --> 00:08:25.589 where you kind of figure out like, okay, cuz it's not just like, like you 00:08:25.594 --> 00:08:28.818 think like, okay, like I own 5% of the company, you own 5% of the company. 00:08:28.827 --> 00:08:30.618 We both get the same thing, but that's not really true. 00:08:30.618 --> 00:08:33.018 Cause if you have a liquidation preference, which if you have leverage, 00:08:33.018 --> 00:08:34.038 you can get a liquidation preference. 00:08:34.038 --> 00:08:35.718 It means like, let's say we sell the company. 00:08:36.753 --> 00:08:36.873 you 00:08:36.873 --> 00:08:38.883 know, X number of dollars and you have a certain amount that you 00:08:38.973 --> 00:08:40.503 serve, like you can get money out. 00:08:40.503 --> 00:08:42.933 So there's a lot of times where like employers or founders should get $0 00:08:42.933 --> 00:08:45.483 because the VCs have enough liquidation preferences, stuff like that. 00:08:45.483 --> 00:08:47.343 So anyway, that's what term sheet is. 00:08:47.374 --> 00:08:49.894 We've been really lucky that I've never gotten a bad term sheet. 00:08:49.894 --> 00:08:51.101 Like it's always been pretty good. 00:08:51.101 --> 00:08:53.741 But the problem with a pulled term sheet, pulled term sheet just means like the, 00:08:53.771 --> 00:08:55.407 the VCs like, nevermind, just kidding. 00:08:55.407 --> 00:08:58.303 Before you sign it, is that, I mean, people have been doing a lot of term 00:08:58.303 --> 00:09:01.993 sheets when, like the past few years when like covid happened and then recently, 00:09:01.993 --> 00:09:04.702 like as the recession started to happen more and more people have been pulling 00:09:04.702 --> 00:09:08.528 term sheets and seen as very like Not a good business practice, obviously. 00:09:08.528 --> 00:09:10.498 Like it's very like, you know, it's, it's like it's also like 00:09:10.498 --> 00:09:13.185 pulling a contract for if you like, you know, an employment contract. 00:09:13.185 --> 00:09:15.355 Like, you know, you sign a contract and it's like, just kidding. 00:09:15.355 --> 00:09:17.835 It just seems like really bad you know, bad business. 00:09:17.835 --> 00:09:20.957 But unless of course, like you said, if it's like, like true fraud, then like 00:09:20.962 --> 00:09:23.417 no one's gonna be mad if you see firm necessarily for pulling a term sheet. 00:09:23.417 --> 00:09:26.247 But a lot of people are just doing it cuz like, you know, the market changes 00:09:26.247 --> 00:09:28.407 a little bit, but the problem is like, if you pull a term sheet, it's like, 00:09:28.412 --> 00:09:31.107 people are like, so like if you, if you sign a term sheet, then all of a sudden 00:09:31.107 --> 00:09:33.760 it's like you turn down your other VCs that have offered you money and you're 00:09:33.760 --> 00:09:34.930 like, okay, I'm gonna commit to this one. 00:09:34.935 --> 00:09:36.910 And then there's always a little bit of diligence after 00:09:36.915 --> 00:09:37.840 the term sheet, by the way. 00:09:37.952 --> 00:09:39.545 But you know, there shouldn't be any lying or anything. 00:09:39.545 --> 00:09:41.855 So like, by that point the diligence should be purely diligence. 00:09:41.855 --> 00:09:44.199 Not you know, anything, anything significant, but. 00:09:44.874 --> 00:09:46.774 It means like you're already planning on the money, you've turned on other 00:09:46.774 --> 00:09:49.774 VCs and you're planning on the money and like you start like hiring or 00:09:49.774 --> 00:09:50.884 making decisions based on the money. 00:09:50.884 --> 00:09:53.794 So like pulling a term sheet's pretty bad because like all of a sudden you 00:09:53.794 --> 00:09:54.874 have to tell, then it trickles down. 00:09:54.874 --> 00:09:56.164 They have to tell your employees like, oh, just kidding. 00:09:56.164 --> 00:09:58.684 I literally can't afford you because the term sheet didn't 00:09:58.684 --> 00:09:59.434 go through and stuff like that. 00:09:59.434 --> 00:10:02.574 So anyway, that's you asked me right before this and I was like, 00:10:02.579 --> 00:10:03.384 what's it like to run a company? 00:10:03.384 --> 00:10:07.914 I was like, I'd probably work like, just raw, like less, I like write 00:10:07.914 --> 00:10:10.134 less code or like, you know, spend less time sending email, stuff 00:10:10.134 --> 00:10:11.184 like that than like previous jobs. 00:10:11.189 --> 00:10:14.604 But like, that's the like two A, not that specifically, but stuff like, that's 00:10:14.604 --> 00:10:18.058 like the two A am panic attacks that that replace the the raw output of work. 00:10:18.063 --> 00:10:18.778 So, so, yeah. 00:10:19.368 --> 00:10:19.858 Matt: Yeah. 00:10:19.908 --> 00:10:20.268 Wow. 00:10:21.678 --> 00:10:22.188 So what else? 00:10:22.248 --> 00:10:22.738 Well, 00:10:22.748 --> 00:10:23.488 Greg: It's like therapy. 00:10:23.488 --> 00:10:25.648 Do you, do you take my insurance or is our copay 00:10:26.088 --> 00:10:26.268 Matt: Yeah. 00:10:26.268 --> 00:10:30.828 Where's the, the, chaise lounge the lay down and tell me what does 00:10:30.828 --> 00:10:31.908 that, what does that actually mean? 00:10:31.998 --> 00:10:33.898 No, . So what else is new? 00:10:33.898 --> 00:10:34.888 What's, what's new with Readme? 00:10:34.888 --> 00:10:35.848 What's for those who don't know? 00:10:36.028 --> 00:10:41.538 README is sort of alluded to in the, the doc hub video for yc, but why don't you 00:10:41.538 --> 00:10:42.828 explain what README is and what's new. 00:10:43.563 --> 00:10:47.304 Greg: Yeah, so we do API documentation, so APIs I think most people know APIs 00:10:47.304 --> 00:10:50.993 who are listening this podcast, but API is a basically central application 00:10:50.998 --> 00:10:54.482 programming interface, but it's how different companies or products connect. 00:10:54.487 --> 00:10:57.002 So if you ever go to a website, you see like data from a different company. 00:10:57.002 --> 00:11:01.355 So like you you know, go to a hotel website and you get a hotel and then at 00:11:01.355 --> 00:11:04.115 the end it's like, would you like to get a car as well from this different company? 00:11:04.115 --> 00:11:05.463 Like there's an API powering that. 00:11:05.463 --> 00:11:06.437 It's a way like shared data. 00:11:06.437 --> 00:11:08.567 It's a way to like, if you ever get a text message, they're probably using 00:11:08.567 --> 00:11:09.857 Twilio's, APIs, stuff like that. 00:11:09.857 --> 00:11:12.707 So most companies at this point are built on a bunch of cobbled together 00:11:12.707 --> 00:11:17.053 APIs that do like discreet business functions or data or whatever else. 00:11:18.103 --> 00:11:21.493 And we do is we build the documentation for the developers, have to implement it. 00:11:21.493 --> 00:11:25.222 So like as of now, it takes a developer to implement stuff and 00:11:25.222 --> 00:11:26.452 to make it, make it all happen. 00:11:26.452 --> 00:11:29.801 And what we do is we make it easy for developers to learn how to use 00:11:29.801 --> 00:11:32.681 an API because each API is like different, like parameters you send 00:11:32.686 --> 00:11:34.194 in and values and stuff like that. 00:11:34.197 --> 00:11:36.027 I'm kinda trying to oscillate between like using the technical 00:11:36.027 --> 00:11:40.145 terms and also you know, more more noob terms to fit the podcast. 00:11:40.145 --> 00:11:41.395 But what we do is 00:11:41.395 --> 00:11:42.325 the API ation. 00:11:42.354 --> 00:11:43.627 There's numerous kinds of APIs. 00:11:43.632 --> 00:11:47.467 There's like public APIs, there's private APIs, like internal microservices. 00:11:47.581 --> 00:11:50.831 But the entire, you know, most of infrastructure when it comes to to 00:11:51.511 --> 00:11:52.321 to software. 00:11:52.381 --> 00:11:55.351 there's just tons of APIs, whether it's like public API that you pay for, 00:11:55.501 --> 00:11:57.601 free public api, private internal ones. 00:11:57.686 --> 00:12:00.836 Anytime an iPhone app talks to a server someplace, like it goes 00:12:00.836 --> 00:12:02.214 over an api things like that. 00:12:02.214 --> 00:12:04.789 So that's what re does what is new with us. 00:12:04.898 --> 00:12:05.618 Let's see. 00:12:06.728 --> 00:12:08.978 I'm trying to think of like, features you'd care about or anything like that. 00:12:09.030 --> 00:12:10.668 Went to get Universe today, you saw that. 00:12:10.747 --> 00:12:11.387 That was nice. 00:12:11.387 --> 00:12:14.686 We got spent a lot of money for a half hour booth, but it was really good. 00:12:14.686 --> 00:12:15.626 We gotta talked to a bunch of people. 00:12:15.627 --> 00:12:19.044 One thing I've loved about reading was like, been doing this for six or seven 00:12:19.044 --> 00:12:20.274 years at this point, seven or eight years. 00:12:20.274 --> 00:12:20.814 It's been a while. 00:12:21.114 --> 00:12:22.478 And pre covid. 00:12:22.478 --> 00:12:23.588 So it was like, what, four years ago? 00:12:23.629 --> 00:12:25.591 People like knew us and liked us enough. 00:12:25.618 --> 00:12:26.538 And like I'll go to conferences. 00:12:26.538 --> 00:12:28.548 Like people would kind of be like, oh, I don't read me, or something like that. 00:12:28.668 --> 00:12:31.158 And then like, didn't do anything for two and a half years cause of Covid. 00:12:31.248 --> 00:12:33.438 And like now when I go to events, like people like no 00:12:33.438 --> 00:12:34.788 read me and like, super excited. 00:12:34.788 --> 00:12:35.598 And it's so cool. 00:12:35.598 --> 00:12:39.108 Like, like, like prior to Covid, people are like, eh, yeah, I've heard of Readme. 00:12:39.108 --> 00:12:40.308 Or like, is that that thing? 00:12:40.308 --> 00:12:41.398 And it's like, eh, yeah, sure. 00:12:41.398 --> 00:12:43.509 But now it's like people, like we have customers everywhere. 00:12:43.514 --> 00:12:45.939 People use us, people like us, like it's really cool. 00:12:45.939 --> 00:12:48.309 So I've been really liking this like post covid going to events 00:12:48.309 --> 00:12:50.955 thing cuz cause people people know Readme now, so it's nice. 00:12:51.300 --> 00:12:52.380 Matt: It's really validating, huh? 00:12:53.010 --> 00:12:54.568 Greg: Yeah, it's I mean, that's not why I do it. 00:12:54.568 --> 00:12:55.948 I don't really care if people know read me. 00:12:56.061 --> 00:13:01.152 But it is, I mean, so when we did, so back when we like first started talking about 00:13:01.157 --> 00:13:05.082 this, like when I, I did raise money, so we got into yc and YC gives you $120,000, 00:13:05.082 --> 00:13:06.612 which seems like a lot of money now. 00:13:06.612 --> 00:13:08.922 It's like 600, but like back then it was $120,000. 00:13:08.927 --> 00:13:12.447 And that seems like a lot of money, but like, that's not a lot of money at all. 00:13:12.474 --> 00:13:15.444 So you have to go raise money and like we raised 1.2 million, which 00:13:15.624 --> 00:13:17.004 also seems like a ton of money. 00:13:17.035 --> 00:13:18.235 I was like, it's 1.2 million. 00:13:18.415 --> 00:13:19.670 It's more than I could ever used ever. 00:13:19.707 --> 00:13:22.275 But it's really that, you know, that goes away pretty quickly. 00:13:22.275 --> 00:13:22.965 But you need to raise money. 00:13:22.995 --> 00:13:25.387 And so like when I first was pitching people, every 00:13:25.387 --> 00:13:26.617 single conversation was like, 00:13:27.712 --> 00:13:28.042 they're like, 00:13:28.042 --> 00:13:29.032 okay, what's an api? 00:13:29.092 --> 00:13:31.522 So like, you spend the first, you like a half hour or an hour or whatever it is. 00:13:31.522 --> 00:13:34.072 And like I spent a lot of time not talking about README and why README 00:13:34.072 --> 00:13:36.082 is cool or what was exciting about, but like, just trying to explain 00:13:36.087 --> 00:13:38.062 to VCs like what an API even was. 00:13:38.062 --> 00:13:42.262 And like, and, and they're like, because like to them, like, so VCs are, 00:13:42.292 --> 00:13:44.705 are fascinating cuz they're, they're, they tend to be very curious people. 00:13:44.705 --> 00:13:46.853 Cuz if you just care about just like money and numbers, like you 00:13:46.858 --> 00:13:48.653 go into hedge fund or you're into a growth fund or something like that. 00:13:48.653 --> 00:13:51.942 Like you're not doing like seed stage VCs, like the seed stage VCs are really 00:13:51.947 --> 00:13:55.302 fascinating because they are really interested, like they do love learning. 00:13:55.332 --> 00:13:57.809 It's one of those things where like, yeah, sure, anyone now knows that like, 00:13:57.839 --> 00:14:01.079 Figma is gonna be worth, you know, a trillion dollars, whatever, but like, 00:14:01.349 --> 00:14:02.459 or not anymore I guess cause they sold. 00:14:02.459 --> 00:14:05.669 But like, you know, when you first get like the first person like saw Figma 00:14:05.829 --> 00:14:08.949 and like, you know, they're like, we're gonna do Photoshop for in the pros. 00:14:09.299 --> 00:14:12.149 Well, that's never gonna work because like, it's too gonna 00:14:12.149 --> 00:14:13.319 be too slow, too clunky. 00:14:13.319 --> 00:14:14.099 Like, why didn't anyone want it? 00:14:14.099 --> 00:14:14.969 Like they spend all their time in it. 00:14:14.969 --> 00:14:17.099 Like they're, you know, very happy to like, download an app. 00:14:17.309 --> 00:14:18.959 You have to fight against Adobe, which is gigantic. 00:14:18.959 --> 00:14:22.769 Like, it makes, you know, it's so that you can't be a good seed investor 00:14:22.769 --> 00:14:24.239 without being like super curious. 00:14:24.319 --> 00:14:26.765 And I mean, you can, but like for the most part you really can't. 00:14:26.777 --> 00:14:29.207 You have to like, you know, be open to new ideas because you're taking 00:14:29.207 --> 00:14:30.557 chances on things that aren't proven. 00:14:30.598 --> 00:14:33.508 And like there's some seed investors who are like, you're like, I'm like 00:14:33.508 --> 00:14:35.698 this, but you get to invest in it. 00:14:35.698 --> 00:14:37.198 And like, that's also a decent strategy. 00:14:37.198 --> 00:14:39.718 It's like, you know, I'm like, we just went to GitHub, which I'm thinking this 00:14:39.723 --> 00:14:43.498 like, it's like, I'm like GitHub, but, you know, five years later, which means that 00:14:43.498 --> 00:14:44.848 you can invest in it at a cheap price. 00:14:44.848 --> 00:14:45.898 And they're like, okay, GitHub's big. 00:14:45.903 --> 00:14:46.558 Like I get that. 00:14:46.558 --> 00:14:47.357 Like I'll invest in it. 00:14:47.414 --> 00:14:48.947 But for the most part, like, they're very curious. 00:14:49.817 --> 00:14:52.787 But I said most of the time like just explaining like why APIs were important. 00:14:52.967 --> 00:14:55.097 So you get to the end and you'd be like, you wanna invest? 00:14:55.097 --> 00:14:56.507 And like, oh, we did really well. 00:14:56.507 --> 00:14:58.967 Like a lot of people did invest, but a lot of times they're like, you 00:14:58.967 --> 00:15:00.827 know, you didn't get to the point where you're explaining why re's cool. 00:15:00.857 --> 00:15:01.637 They're just like, oh cool. 00:15:01.667 --> 00:15:02.147 APIs are cool. 00:15:02.147 --> 00:15:02.807 I like that idea. 00:15:03.017 --> 00:15:05.177 Like APIs and like, you're like, but I didn't tell you about my company. 00:15:05.229 --> 00:15:07.779 But the second time, like we, we raised when we did a series A I'm 00:15:07.779 --> 00:15:09.939 not big on raising money, so we raised money very, very infrequently. 00:15:09.939 --> 00:15:12.877 Like when we not necessarily need it, but when we like want it. 00:15:12.907 --> 00:15:14.587 So when we raised like a Series A, it was so weird cause 00:15:14.587 --> 00:15:15.757 everything had completely changed. 00:15:15.757 --> 00:15:19.597 Like in 2019, we raised a series A and like everyone knew exactly what API I was. 00:15:19.597 --> 00:15:23.167 And like, it wasn't like, I didn't once have to, cause I kind of went in and 00:15:23.172 --> 00:15:25.397 being like, oh, I know what this is like, and I was ready to talk about like what 00:15:25.447 --> 00:15:26.437 APIs and what it's gonna be important. 00:15:26.637 --> 00:15:29.227 Everyone was like, not al like, you know, like, just move on. 00:15:29.227 --> 00:15:30.748 Tell us like why, why you're exciting. 00:15:30.748 --> 00:15:31.663 And that was really cool to watch. 00:15:31.663 --> 00:15:34.575 Like just the shift and like, you know, back when like we were 00:15:34.580 --> 00:15:36.007 talking about DocHub, it was like, 00:15:36.967 --> 00:15:37.087 I 00:15:37.087 --> 00:15:40.046 don't know what like GitHub was kind of big, but it was like, get up has 00:15:40.046 --> 00:15:42.401 like, 800,000 users at that point. 00:15:42.401 --> 00:15:44.321 Like, it's like, and it was huge for a dev tool. 00:15:44.321 --> 00:15:46.991 Like, it's not, it wasn't like a lucrative market. 00:15:47.091 --> 00:15:50.031 Like maybe you could say like, Microsoft had some cool, like, you know, back then 00:15:50.031 --> 00:15:53.271 like net stuff, like everything was like free and open source and there wasn't 00:15:53.271 --> 00:15:57.561 like any examples, like, I remember like, you know, really loving Twilio, for 00:15:57.561 --> 00:15:59.691 example, and like Stripe just opened up. 00:15:59.691 --> 00:16:00.740 But like I don't know. 00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:02.577 It's, it's but they weren't huge. 00:16:02.582 --> 00:16:04.827 Like obviously these names I'm saying now, like Stripe and Twilio are 00:16:04.832 --> 00:16:08.817 huge now, but like, Twilio was like, you know, 12 people at the time. 00:16:08.817 --> 00:16:11.907 Like it was super tiny and like, it was, it was cool and I would've loved to have 00:16:11.907 --> 00:16:14.757 like, worked there, but it wasn't like, it was like, this is a good business. 00:16:14.833 --> 00:16:15.373 And like now it's not. 00:16:15.463 --> 00:16:16.063 That's completely that true. 00:16:16.063 --> 00:16:19.213 Like now APIs are a gigantic business and there's no doubt by mine. 00:16:19.213 --> 00:16:21.714 But yeah, it was, it was an uphill battle early on cuz like, no one 00:16:21.864 --> 00:16:24.744 people, like, even people who knew about it, like knew what Dev knew 00:16:24.744 --> 00:16:26.094 by dev tools, like under show APIs. 00:16:26.094 --> 00:16:29.604 Like, they're like, yeah, that's cool, but. 00:16:30.339 --> 00:16:31.329 There's not a lot of money in it. 00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:32.381 So I dunno. 00:16:32.456 --> 00:16:35.533 It's it's tough and that's why like, I, I'm not a huge huge fan of raising 00:16:35.533 --> 00:16:36.842 money is because I just never know. 00:16:36.842 --> 00:16:37.832 Like, I was always like always afraid. 00:16:37.862 --> 00:16:39.542 Cause like, we're always a little bit ahead of time, I think. 00:16:39.589 --> 00:16:40.618 And yeah, so 00:16:40.708 --> 00:16:40.948 I dunno. 00:16:41.033 --> 00:16:41.193 Matt: dunno. 00:16:41.383 --> 00:16:41.893 So like, 00:16:44.263 --> 00:16:44.383 if 00:16:44.383 --> 00:16:47.413 you were to start over again, and I remember when I actually found the Doca 00:16:47.413 --> 00:16:52.543 website, it was still up and if you look at the Doco website, it says, Like 00:16:52.543 --> 00:16:57.103 we, like, I think you made unsolicited documentation for some company. 00:16:57.103 --> 00:16:59.023 I Scribd, or I can't remember what it was. 00:16:59.323 --> 00:16:59.683 Yeah. 00:16:59.863 --> 00:17:03.823 And I'm curious if you were, if you were to start again today. 00:17:03.853 --> 00:17:03.913 Yeah. 00:17:04.123 --> 00:17:05.323 And no one knows Readme. 00:17:05.623 --> 00:17:05.983 Right. 00:17:06.043 --> 00:17:09.463 And somehow you got, you know, you're not even.com, you're like readme 00:17:09.468 --> 00:17:13.483 dot, you know, io or.app or dot, you know, whatever, you know, dev the 00:17:13.483 --> 00:17:15.133 documentation website.com or something. 00:17:15.133 --> 00:17:15.463 Right? 00:17:15.613 --> 00:17:16.543 No one knows about you. 00:17:16.543 --> 00:17:16.633 Mm-hmm. 00:17:16.903 --> 00:17:20.653 , how would you get people excited about it? 00:17:20.653 --> 00:17:22.183 Like how, how would you get the word out? 00:17:22.213 --> 00:17:23.113 Would you do the same approach? 00:17:23.113 --> 00:17:25.903 Like make unsolicited documentation, like show it to them 00:17:26.068 --> 00:17:27.598 Greg: That, that didn't work at the time. 00:17:27.598 --> 00:17:27.988 It's, 00:17:28.018 --> 00:17:29.308 That's, that's never worked 00:17:29.308 --> 00:17:29.758 for us. 00:17:29.767 --> 00:17:31.659 Every once in a while I'll go through a brochure, I'll be like, yeah, let's 00:17:31.659 --> 00:17:32.559 like build the ducks for people. 00:17:32.564 --> 00:17:35.679 And like, it's hard cause I just don't really value it, which is totally fine. 00:17:35.684 --> 00:17:37.629 Like, it's just like, they're like, oh, it looks nice, but like, whatever. 00:17:37.629 --> 00:17:39.369 Like, that's not how you sell to 00:17:39.369 --> 00:17:39.759 a company. 00:17:39.764 --> 00:17:39.879 Like, 00:17:39.879 --> 00:17:42.819 I always like thought that would be, and like you always hear stories about 00:17:42.819 --> 00:17:45.849 like, and these stories are true, but it's like, you know, the Carlson 00:17:45.849 --> 00:17:48.579 brothers like launched Stripe at like, going to everyone's office that would 00:17:48.579 --> 00:17:51.939 use it and like sitting down next to their engineer and like, I don't know. 00:17:51.939 --> 00:17:52.179 I think. 00:17:53.874 --> 00:17:55.014 I believe that story's true. 00:17:55.014 --> 00:17:55.464 Of course. 00:17:55.464 --> 00:17:58.104 I just think that's more of a myth is like, especially now, like maybe it 00:17:58.104 --> 00:18:01.704 had 15 years ago, that's how it worked, but like now no company's like letting 00:18:01.764 --> 00:18:04.704 someone come in and like, you know, write code that's not part of the company. 00:18:04.709 --> 00:18:05.604 Like, that's just not a thing. 00:18:05.604 --> 00:18:08.694 Like if, if someone message emailed me right now was like, Hey, I got 00:18:08.694 --> 00:18:10.854 this new product, like I'll come to your office and like write code. 00:18:10.854 --> 00:18:12.534 I'd be like, no, that's weird. 00:18:12.924 --> 00:18:13.654 Like, definitely not. 00:18:13.654 --> 00:18:17.029 But yeah, like, so I mean, what I did differently, so I had, like, 00:18:17.029 --> 00:18:19.339 I knew I wanted to make Apes used to use, that's what I cared about. 00:18:19.428 --> 00:18:21.558 And I had a bunch of different like ideas, like there was Doub, 00:18:21.563 --> 00:18:22.548 which was, you know, became read. 00:18:22.638 --> 00:18:23.568 It looked very different. 00:18:23.568 --> 00:18:24.928 Like similar but very different. 00:18:24.928 --> 00:18:25.559 One called Hook. 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:27.239 I was very sim I was trying to find that exact thing and I 00:18:27.239 --> 00:18:28.109 always talked to people about it. 00:18:28.109 --> 00:18:32.650 And and like, There's YC has this like, or Paul Graham, who started 00:18:32.650 --> 00:18:35.454 by C has, or one of the founders of YC has this as this blog post where 00:18:35.454 --> 00:18:38.445 he talks about this concert of like sitcom startups and a sitcom startup. 00:18:38.531 --> 00:18:41.801 His definition is if you were to write, if you're in a writer's room for a TV show 00:18:41.801 --> 00:18:46.781 and you want to, you know, this character is a entrepreneur, a tech entrepreneur, 00:18:46.781 --> 00:18:50.411 and like, you have to come up with an idea that's plausible enough that people 00:18:50.411 --> 00:18:51.521 would be like, oh, yeah, okay, sure. 00:18:51.521 --> 00:18:53.321 Matt's a, that that company sounds right. 00:18:53.321 --> 00:18:55.031 Cause like, you don't take people outta the sitcom. 00:18:55.031 --> 00:18:56.831 It's like, yeah, that sounds right, like that's a good enough idea. 00:18:57.191 --> 00:19:01.331 But like, his point is like, there's a lot of ideas though, like that, 00:19:01.331 --> 00:19:04.061 that like sound good enough that they pass the, like, it could be a sitcom, 00:19:04.361 --> 00:19:05.561 but like, no one actually wants it. 00:19:05.561 --> 00:19:08.021 And the example they use is like a social network for pets. 00:19:08.021 --> 00:19:10.151 And like, you go to a bunch of people like, Hey, you love your dog, right? 00:19:10.151 --> 00:19:11.921 Like, would you use social network for pets? 00:19:11.921 --> 00:19:14.291 And like, you're like, yeah, I totally use that. 00:19:14.471 --> 00:19:16.571 But then when it comes town, like you build it and like it comes time 00:19:16.571 --> 00:19:17.831 to be like, okay, Matts sign up. 00:19:17.831 --> 00:19:19.661 It's like, you'll you'll sign up cause you're my friends. 00:19:19.666 --> 00:19:20.471 So you'll sign up for it. 00:19:20.591 --> 00:19:22.751 And then like, then I'll be like, Hey Matt, like. 00:19:23.291 --> 00:19:26.741 Your dog hasn't post in a few weeks, and you'll be like, fine, and you'll post 00:19:26.741 --> 00:19:28.031 like, one post just to make me happy. 00:19:28.031 --> 00:19:29.141 And it's like, that's kinda the point. 00:19:29.141 --> 00:19:30.851 It's like, it's one of those, like, there's a lot of stars out there that's 00:19:30.851 --> 00:19:33.851 like a lot of ideas out there where it's like, it sounds like a good enough idea. 00:19:33.851 --> 00:19:37.001 Like I could convince you that pet star ideas a really good idea 00:19:37.001 --> 00:19:38.441 because like, hey, look at Instagram. 00:19:38.591 --> 00:19:40.841 So many people have like, you know, Instagram accounts 00:19:40.841 --> 00:19:41.681 for their dogs and cats. 00:19:41.681 --> 00:19:43.391 Like, but it's not made for that, right? 00:19:43.391 --> 00:19:46.241 Like it's, why would you post it on like, you know, Instagram's for humans. 00:19:46.241 --> 00:19:49.301 Like, think of all the cool stuff you do if like, you like Paw or stuff like that. 00:19:49.306 --> 00:19:51.911 And then, and then we also know, by the way, that like everyone has a pet 00:19:51.911 --> 00:19:53.111 so we can sell to advertisers, right? 00:19:53.111 --> 00:19:55.271 So like, you know, and like you can like make that case, but like if 00:19:55.271 --> 00:19:58.691 no one actually uses it, like, you know, if rounds down to zero and 00:19:58.691 --> 00:20:01.905 you end up with zero customers if everyone's like a maybe or a no. 00:20:02.115 --> 00:20:06.555 So when I'm going with this is that early on I would tell people about it 00:20:06.705 --> 00:20:07.365 and they'd be like, yeah, that's cool. 00:20:07.365 --> 00:20:08.055 I really like that. 00:20:08.105 --> 00:20:09.602 And I'd like play around with it and all that. 00:20:09.602 --> 00:20:11.552 And like, it feels good to have someone say like, yeah, I'd use that. 00:20:11.664 --> 00:20:14.980 But then something shifted, like, I kept like talking about it and like, you know, 00:20:15.190 --> 00:20:18.730 shifting around ideas and like, it started to shift where people were like, oh, 00:20:19.350 --> 00:20:20.920 Like, when can I, when can I use that? 00:20:21.280 --> 00:20:22.733 And that's where gets really cool. 00:20:22.733 --> 00:20:25.463 Cause like, I, I noticed to flip instantly, like the way 00:20:25.463 --> 00:20:26.603 people like respond to me. 00:20:26.603 --> 00:20:29.663 Like, and not that I was ever lying to myself, but like, I was always like, 00:20:29.663 --> 00:20:30.593 yeah, I guess they kind of want it. 00:20:30.623 --> 00:20:33.833 And like, I like shifted how I was talking about it and like what, what 00:20:33.953 --> 00:20:36.083 features were important and what features weren't, and stuff like that. 00:20:36.083 --> 00:20:39.173 And like one day people just all of a sudden started being like, 00:20:39.413 --> 00:20:40.433 yeah, like, can I set up now? 00:20:40.433 --> 00:20:41.003 And I'm like, no, no. 00:20:41.003 --> 00:20:42.053 Like, it's not ready yet. 00:20:42.053 --> 00:20:44.663 And like, and like one point, like I like, you know, I did let people start 00:20:44.663 --> 00:20:46.163 using it and like now people are using it. 00:20:46.163 --> 00:20:47.753 Like one person like Venmo would be money. 00:20:47.753 --> 00:20:50.003 Cause I didn't have a, I didn't set up filling yet. 00:20:50.003 --> 00:20:53.903 And like, and like he didn't Venmo me for any reason or other like, you 00:20:53.903 --> 00:20:54.863 know, you should be charging for this. 00:20:54.863 --> 00:20:57.563 And like, I just want you to know like, like this is what I want. 00:20:57.563 --> 00:20:58.583 Like, I just wanna like, give you money. 00:20:58.583 --> 00:21:01.250 Like that's when I quit all my I was doing freelancing at the time. 00:21:01.250 --> 00:21:03.560 That's when I quit my freelancing jobs and like, okay, I'm gonna do it full time. 00:21:03.560 --> 00:21:07.640 And like, it wasn't really a question you asked, I know that, but like, I 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:11.540 think it doesn't really matter what you do for marketing stuff, if the idea is 00:21:11.545 --> 00:21:13.430 not kind of exactly where it should be. 00:21:13.497 --> 00:21:15.819 But you had, like, you were doing something buoyancy years ago, right? 00:21:16.134 --> 00:21:16.344 yeah. 00:21:16.404 --> 00:21:18.684 How did that, I wasn't wondering like what that, I mean, clearly it 00:21:18.684 --> 00:21:21.073 didn't work out that well cuz but like, what was it, how did that work? 00:21:21.328 --> 00:21:23.878 Matt: so there's a couple other, like, there's a couple entrepreneurs 00:21:23.878 --> 00:21:27.238 out there that have like these lists of all the things that they've done 00:21:27.238 --> 00:21:28.738 and like what the status of it. 00:21:28.738 --> 00:21:29.908 I need to make one of those. 00:21:30.208 --> 00:21:30.508 Oh yeah. 00:21:30.508 --> 00:21:30.718 Buoy. 00:21:30.718 --> 00:21:31.768 I just abandoned it. 00:21:31.858 --> 00:21:32.188 Yeah. 00:21:32.278 --> 00:21:36.418 Like I, the idea behind buoyancy was to test FBI test if your idea floats. 00:21:36.423 --> 00:21:36.538 Yep. 00:21:36.898 --> 00:21:40.879 And you, I don't know, like I spent more money like paying for the domain 00:21:40.879 --> 00:21:43.549 name every year than I did working, like, like would've been working on it. 00:21:43.549 --> 00:21:43.895 Right. 00:21:43.903 --> 00:21:46.033 And eventually I was just like, okay, I'm gonna let it, I'm gonna let it go. 00:21:46.333 --> 00:21:47.143 I gotta let it go. 00:21:47.353 --> 00:21:48.283 But that was the idea. 00:21:48.283 --> 00:21:53.511 And so it was sort of like, it was like analytics and loosely borrowed from 00:21:53.511 --> 00:21:55.611 the idea of Buffer how Buffer started. 00:21:55.851 --> 00:21:58.731 So they put up like a home pay, a landing page, and there's a few clicks 00:21:58.731 --> 00:22:00.771 you could do and you could see pricing and it was like, this sounds great. 00:22:00.771 --> 00:22:02.061 I wanna go and buy this. 00:22:02.121 --> 00:22:04.551 And then you go to buy it and it's like, and you think it's real. 00:22:04.556 --> 00:22:05.901 And it's like a couple different pricing plans. 00:22:05.901 --> 00:22:08.181 You click buy and sign up and they give them your email and 00:22:08.181 --> 00:22:10.731 then you, they say like, Hey, we're not quite ready for you yet. 00:22:10.736 --> 00:22:12.730 But, you know But we'll let you know when we are ready. 00:22:12.810 --> 00:22:13.170 Mm-hmm. 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:16.540 . And so I wanted to like build that as like a product. 00:22:16.545 --> 00:22:16.850 Mm-hmm. 00:22:16.894 --> 00:22:19.037 . But you know, a bit more to it, like how long did it take 00:22:19.037 --> 00:22:19.967 you to click between screens? 00:22:19.967 --> 00:22:21.017 What are the different screens? 00:22:21.017 --> 00:22:24.137 Can you do it from your phone like in a bar when you have an idea one night? 00:22:24.497 --> 00:22:27.467 I never really got, I never really took it too much. 00:22:27.497 --> 00:22:28.007 Too far. 00:22:28.007 --> 00:22:28.157 Right. 00:22:28.162 --> 00:22:29.207 I never built it out. 00:22:29.357 --> 00:22:29.597 Yeah. 00:22:29.625 --> 00:22:31.647 I got busy with other stuff and I needed to make money cuz I 00:22:31.647 --> 00:22:34.407 started that idea in college and I was like, broke college kids. 00:22:34.412 --> 00:22:34.747 So 00:22:34.902 --> 00:22:37.002 Greg: I mean, you also, you can't have a business where you're selling 00:22:37.002 --> 00:22:38.142 to people who are also broke. 00:22:38.142 --> 00:22:38.862 Just have ideas. 00:22:38.867 --> 00:22:39.702 So it's not the best 00:22:39.752 --> 00:22:40.502 early business. 00:22:40.637 --> 00:22:40.787 Matt: Yeah. 00:22:40.787 --> 00:22:41.297 True. 00:22:41.522 --> 00:22:42.722 Greg: Do you remember a launch rock there? 00:22:42.727 --> 00:22:43.952 Answer of Launch Rock A little bit. 00:22:44.267 --> 00:22:44.777 Matt: Launch Rock? 00:22:44.837 --> 00:22:46.307 Yeah, I do actually. 00:22:46.307 --> 00:22:47.237 It was so, or similar. 00:22:47.237 --> 00:22:48.257 Are they still around 00:22:48.272 --> 00:22:51.152 Greg: Googled and I got off by startups.com, I guess, but 00:22:51.197 --> 00:22:52.367 Matt: what is startups.com? 00:22:52.442 --> 00:22:52.922 Greg: clue. 00:22:53.014 --> 00:22:56.319 But startups.com, it's like a roll up where they just like 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:57.219 buy a bunch of like stuff. 00:22:57.224 --> 00:23:00.289 But like yeah, cause I remember like back in college it would be like, yeah, 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.979 like it made it so easy just to like, launch something look kind of nice 00:23:03.979 --> 00:23:06.529 and you'd be like, and you talk to the domain and you could like, get people 00:23:06.529 --> 00:23:09.919 to sign up and like, I never got sign up, but it was like a, a cheap way. 00:23:10.249 --> 00:23:14.149 I mean, I think the hard part about those are like, don't know, 00:23:14.149 --> 00:23:15.229 it, it's such a hard balance. 00:23:15.229 --> 00:23:16.669 Cause you have to find that conviction though. 00:23:16.729 --> 00:23:20.539 Like, I don't, it's cause it, it's, it's like a, you get a egg problem, 00:23:20.539 --> 00:23:23.389 which is like, you know what, what number of people clicking, like the 00:23:23.389 --> 00:23:26.209 pricing page is gonna like actually convince you to spend the next like, 00:23:27.229 --> 00:23:29.749 let's say two months for a really, really simple MVP. 00:23:31.504 --> 00:23:32.464 Oh, I had a question for you actually. 00:23:32.734 --> 00:23:33.964 What do you believe? 00:23:33.994 --> 00:23:35.374 So I think there's like, there's a lot of 00:23:35.499 --> 00:23:36.574 Matt: That's a deep, that's a deep question. 00:23:36.934 --> 00:23:37.054 Greg: Yeah. 00:23:37.054 --> 00:23:38.330 What do you believe just in general? 00:23:38.330 --> 00:23:41.956 So there's like, like a lot of startups raise a bunch of money and spend like 00:23:41.956 --> 00:23:45.046 three years in development and launch something like Superhuman for example, 00:23:45.046 --> 00:23:47.986 where it's like, it comes out, it's polished and other people are like, you 00:23:47.986 --> 00:23:51.702 know, if you're not embarrassed by your v1 then you've taken too long to ship. 00:23:51.702 --> 00:23:54.912 Like, do you fall either direction on those or where do you feel on those? 00:23:57.827 --> 00:24:00.867 Matt: You get a lot of surprise and wow factor with the former, 00:24:00.867 --> 00:24:02.427 with the, the superhuman approach. 00:24:02.427 --> 00:24:05.217 Like, we're gonna go into secret build something for three years. 00:24:05.222 --> 00:24:06.387 You need a lot of money to do that. 00:24:06.387 --> 00:24:08.007 Unless like it's hard to do by yourself, 00:24:08.012 --> 00:24:08.132 you 00:24:08.172 --> 00:24:09.522 Greg: do it unless you already have a success. 00:24:09.522 --> 00:24:10.452 As a founder, I 00:24:10.862 --> 00:24:11.247 Matt: you think 00:24:11.472 --> 00:24:12.552 Greg: well like, okay, like look at like, 00:24:13.182 --> 00:24:13.332 like 00:24:13.332 --> 00:24:15.252 Mighty did it, but that was like the founder did 00:24:15.252 --> 00:24:16.212 Mixed panel before that. 00:24:16.212 --> 00:24:17.092 So everyone knew who he was. 00:24:17.126 --> 00:24:21.602 Raul from superhuman did Report, rapportive but like the Gmail plugin 00:24:21.624 --> 00:24:24.956 and like in the same space like what are some other ones that, like Figma. 00:24:24.961 --> 00:24:25.916 Figma I think did that right? 00:24:25.916 --> 00:24:26.306 Maybe not. 00:24:26.306 --> 00:24:29.726 I think Figma did, like, there was a pretty big, like Figma wasn't like an mvp. 00:24:29.731 --> 00:24:33.176 Figma came up pretty good, but like, I don't know what Dylan did before this, but 00:24:33.272 --> 00:24:35.192 Matt: I think I, I don't know. 00:24:35.412 --> 00:24:36.462 Apple does this. 00:24:36.462 --> 00:24:36.522 Yeah. 00:24:36.732 --> 00:24:36.912 Right. 00:24:36.912 --> 00:24:38.442 And obviously they have infinite money. 00:24:38.532 --> 00:24:38.592 Yeah. 00:24:38.597 --> 00:24:41.802 They can do whatever they want, but you get that surprise and that wow factor. 00:24:41.807 --> 00:24:41.902 Yeah. 00:24:42.282 --> 00:24:44.562 But, and that's great. 00:24:44.562 --> 00:24:45.342 But I don't know if I. 00:24:46.407 --> 00:24:47.757 My approach is not doing that. 00:24:48.177 --> 00:24:51.507 So like I've been building this thing called Pickle for years, and originally 00:24:51.507 --> 00:24:52.647 like I've made so many mistakes. 00:24:52.647 --> 00:24:55.257 Like, I was like, oh, I'm gonna build this personal CRM thing and then 00:24:55.257 --> 00:24:57.417 I'm gonna sell it to other people and I'm gonna sell it to realtors. 00:24:57.422 --> 00:24:58.287 And I got really into that. 00:24:58.292 --> 00:25:00.027 I started going to real estate conventions. 00:25:00.447 --> 00:25:03.237 I would go to open houses and like and like harass the 00:25:03.237 --> 00:25:04.767 realtors working the open house. 00:25:04.977 --> 00:25:06.867 I started building like extra apps around 00:25:06.987 --> 00:25:08.067 Greg: people were trying to sell a house. 00:25:08.072 --> 00:25:09.387 And you're like, no, I can do one better. 00:25:09.482 --> 00:25:10.467 Matt: Yeah, I could do one better. 00:25:10.467 --> 00:25:11.157 Check this out. 00:25:11.487 --> 00:25:14.067 And like, I, I thought I understood real estate. 00:25:14.067 --> 00:25:15.117 I know nothing about it. 00:25:15.117 --> 00:25:17.607 Like, it's totally different like trying to sell to a realtor than 00:25:17.607 --> 00:25:18.747 it is trying to build for myself. 00:25:18.752 --> 00:25:20.937 And that's what I've been, I've been, I've rebuilt it for 00:25:20.937 --> 00:25:22.677 myself and for me it's useful. 00:25:22.677 --> 00:25:24.387 And if other people wanna use it, that's cool. 00:25:24.417 --> 00:25:24.627 Yep. 00:25:24.632 --> 00:25:24.957 But 00:25:25.362 --> 00:25:26.052 Greg: well, that's the thing too though, 00:25:26.052 --> 00:25:28.332 is like you said before, like, you know, just to like build it out for 00:25:28.332 --> 00:25:31.002 people, it's like no, people are just busy and no one wants you to, 00:25:31.002 --> 00:25:33.042 like, you can put the work in, but like, no one wants that. 00:25:33.042 --> 00:25:35.172 No one wants to like, you know, everyone thinks like, oh, I can start 00:25:35.172 --> 00:25:38.102 a restaurant startup, I just like, I can see 30 restaurant around here. 00:25:38.102 --> 00:25:40.602 And you go in like the restaurant owner please leave me alone. 00:25:40.632 --> 00:25:41.172 I don't wanna do 00:25:41.217 --> 00:25:41.457 Matt: this. 00:25:41.487 --> 00:25:43.497 You know, it was like my first actual startup you 00:25:43.532 --> 00:25:44.082 Greg: you do mini thing or 00:25:44.517 --> 00:25:44.667 Matt: When 00:25:44.717 --> 00:25:44.877 I was 00:25:46.337 --> 00:25:50.457 Thir 14 or or so I hacked together this PHP thing. 00:25:50.457 --> 00:25:50.547 Mm-hmm. 00:25:50.787 --> 00:25:55.257 . So my dad owned a restaurant and this restaurant, like you had a website with 00:25:55.257 --> 00:25:58.827 a menu and back then, like restaurant websites were absolute garbage. 00:25:58.947 --> 00:26:02.607 They were either flash or they didn't exist or they, they didn't work on mobile. 00:26:02.697 --> 00:26:05.907 And then finally, like you couldn't get any of the information that you wanted, 00:26:05.907 --> 00:26:07.347 like what you want about a restaurant 00:26:07.467 --> 00:26:09.807 Greg: I wanna know if they're open, what time the kitchen's open till, 00:26:09.837 --> 00:26:11.487 Matt: to make a reservation or contact them. 00:26:11.492 --> 00:26:13.977 Reservation and see like they specials that sort of Exactly. 00:26:14.387 --> 00:26:15.702 But they would all be like, look at these. 00:26:15.702 --> 00:26:17.832 Be like, you're like lost. 00:26:17.862 --> 00:26:17.922 Yeah. 00:26:18.282 --> 00:26:21.895 So I built this thing and it would let you, the person behind the bar 00:26:21.925 --> 00:26:23.425 would be able to set the specials. 00:26:23.425 --> 00:26:25.105 They'd be able to print them out in a nice format. 00:26:25.375 --> 00:26:26.515 They would be updated on the website. 00:26:26.515 --> 00:26:28.465 At the same time the contact info was there. 00:26:28.465 --> 00:26:29.665 It worked on mobile. 00:26:29.905 --> 00:26:34.255 And when I meant mobile then it wasn't iPhones, it was like Blackberry and 00:26:34.285 --> 00:26:38.215 like Palm Pilot things and, and like the Windows CE or whatever Windows phone, 00:26:38.305 --> 00:26:39.831 like which is basically a Palm pilot. 00:26:39.832 --> 00:26:43.403 And so that was I went door to door trying to get to restaurants to buy it. 00:26:43.433 --> 00:26:43.733 Yeah. 00:26:43.943 --> 00:26:48.293 And not a single, like maybe one or two did, but not anyone really cared. 00:26:48.298 --> 00:26:49.673 They're like, we don't have money for this. 00:26:49.673 --> 00:26:49.733 Yeah. 00:26:49.793 --> 00:26:50.423 We don't care. 00:26:50.453 --> 00:26:51.473 People still show up. 00:26:51.593 --> 00:26:51.773 Yeah. 00:26:51.953 --> 00:26:52.283 Right. 00:26:52.283 --> 00:26:55.673 And the last thing that they're gonna do when people aren't showing up is like, 00:26:56.333 --> 00:27:00.413 give this 15 year old kid a bunch of money to like, for this like web app thing. 00:27:00.413 --> 00:27:01.673 Before web app was a term. 00:27:02.453 --> 00:27:03.023 No one cared. 00:27:03.323 --> 00:27:04.523 I did sell it though. 00:27:04.823 --> 00:27:05.003 Greg: Yeah. 00:27:05.393 --> 00:27:07.643 Hey, you sold the company, like as a company? 00:27:07.703 --> 00:27:08.663 Matt: It wasn't a real company. 00:27:08.668 --> 00:27:10.403 I sold the product to the guy said I 00:27:10.433 --> 00:27:12.143 Greg: that's where, that's where you got your millions from. 00:27:12.143 --> 00:27:13.043 I, I knew there had to be 00:27:13.253 --> 00:27:13.743 Matt: Yeah. 00:27:13.743 --> 00:27:14.183 Yeah. 00:27:14.723 --> 00:27:15.323 That's what I was driving. 00:27:15.323 --> 00:27:16.703 A Ford Exploder around. 00:27:16.943 --> 00:27:18.863 No, that was like rusting through the floor. 00:27:19.043 --> 00:27:19.223 Greg: Perfect. 00:27:19.223 --> 00:27:20.513 You're oh, You you're humble. 00:27:20.513 --> 00:27:21.173 Like we're in Buffet. 00:27:21.173 --> 00:27:21.503 You just 00:27:21.503 --> 00:27:21.623 didn't 00:27:21.758 --> 00:27:22.178 Matt: you ever 00:27:22.408 --> 00:27:22.913 Greg: up your money. 00:27:22.913 --> 00:27:23.063 I 00:27:23.248 --> 00:27:24.248 Matt: did I ever tell you the story? 00:27:24.248 --> 00:27:26.978 How I got pulled over by Cop the first time in that car? 00:27:27.128 --> 00:27:29.258 Okay, so I told you it was rusting through the floor. 00:27:29.263 --> 00:27:31.178 I got pulled over by a cop and I couldn't find my wallet anywhere. 00:27:31.178 --> 00:27:33.758 And I was kind of nervous cuz I'd never been pulled over before I was, 00:27:33.763 --> 00:27:37.628 I was going like 40 on a 35, like, I don't know, it was Christmas Eve. 00:27:38.008 --> 00:27:40.868 And I'm like, can I get outta the car to look for my wallet? 00:27:40.868 --> 00:27:44.018 Because I like the only interface I had with cops was like my friend's dad 00:27:44.018 --> 00:27:46.028 was a cop and then like the show cops. 00:27:46.028 --> 00:27:48.848 And I'm like, yep, I don't want to go to like, I don't wanna be on this TV show. 00:27:48.848 --> 00:27:49.208 Right. 00:27:49.658 --> 00:27:50.438 So we said, yeah. 00:27:50.528 --> 00:27:51.728 So I look, I'm like, okay. 00:27:51.728 --> 00:27:51.968 I get 00:27:52.043 --> 00:27:55.973 Greg: no, I, the show cops and tourist was about teenagers who were going a little 00:27:55.973 --> 00:27:57.821 bit a little bit over on Christmas Eve. 00:27:57.821 --> 00:27:59.051 It was, it was a great show. 00:27:59.056 --> 00:27:59.231 It was 00:27:59.336 --> 00:27:59.996 Matt: yeah, yeah. 00:27:59.996 --> 00:28:00.506 It was really. 00:28:00.556 --> 00:28:01.271 Greg: was always a 00:28:01.291 --> 00:28:01.901 Matt: It was great. 00:28:02.551 --> 00:28:04.661 Greg: 17 year olds and like, whatever, you know? 00:28:04.661 --> 00:28:06.521 Matt: Yeah, no, so long story 00:28:06.521 --> 00:28:09.341 short, he's got his flashlight out cause it's nighttime and he's looking 00:28:09.341 --> 00:28:10.781 around cause I can't find my wallet. 00:28:10.841 --> 00:28:14.051 And he says to me before I could find my wallet, he could see like 00:28:14.201 --> 00:28:17.121 how like the seatbelt thing like that attaches to the floor was rusting and 00:28:17.141 --> 00:28:18.371 everything was like rusting in the car. 00:28:18.371 --> 00:28:20.141 He said, is this car safe to drive? 00:28:20.146 --> 00:28:22.271 And I was just like, it's my only car man. 00:28:23.771 --> 00:28:24.911 Greg: Your family own the Yankees. 00:28:24.911 --> 00:28:25.631 What's going on here? 00:28:25.661 --> 00:28:26.481 Matt: he, he gave me a warning. 00:28:26.531 --> 00:28:27.321 He gave a warning. 00:28:27.551 --> 00:28:27.821 Yeah. 00:28:27.911 --> 00:28:28.601 But that was pretty funny. 00:28:28.606 --> 00:28:28.961 Anyways. 00:28:29.047 --> 00:28:30.127 Yeah, going back to the original 00:28:30.167 --> 00:28:32.731 Greg: original Oh yeah, I just also, you said like billing for yourself and like, 00:28:32.731 --> 00:28:33.931 it's really tough cause I think that 00:28:33.998 --> 00:28:34.743 Matt: hard to do though. 00:28:34.778 --> 00:28:34.863 Greg: Okay. 00:28:34.863 --> 00:28:37.053 So if you're in an industry, it's really hard to build for the industry 00:28:37.053 --> 00:28:39.303 because like you have, so like, I always have this like, concept of 00:28:39.303 --> 00:28:42.735 like intentional ignorance I call it, which is like, I don't wanna 00:28:42.735 --> 00:28:43.665 know what our competitor's up to. 00:28:43.665 --> 00:28:45.975 I don't wanna know what already exists because like there's something 00:28:45.975 --> 00:28:47.715 like, I know a little bit about, of course, like, and of course I 00:28:47.715 --> 00:28:48.875 actually know a lot at this point. 00:28:48.875 --> 00:28:51.665 But like, it's just, it's so easy to like to. 00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:54.920 To, to fall into like the fallacy of like, oh, it can't be done 00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:55.970 because so and so tried it. 00:28:55.970 --> 00:28:58.380 Like the problem is like, if you ever like have an idea, by the way every 00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:01.860 idea has been done not well and, and all that, but like, you'll be like, 00:29:01.890 --> 00:29:04.950 oh, I wanna do like X And like, then what you do is you get like a bunch of 00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:08.250 bcs who are like, oh, so and so tried this two years ago and like it didn't 00:29:08.250 --> 00:29:09.150 work and here's why it didn't work. 00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:11.370 And like, you start to get very discouraged or you start to be like, 00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:12.600 oh, this company already did it. 00:29:12.600 --> 00:29:15.300 So like, okay, let's say I wanna like launch like a, a 00:29:15.300 --> 00:29:16.320 Photoshop competitor for example. 00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:18.611 Like, you probably go and you look at Photoshop and you're like, 00:29:18.611 --> 00:29:19.680 I'm gonna copy all these tools. 00:29:19.685 --> 00:29:20.670 It's like, is that the right way to do it? 00:29:20.670 --> 00:29:23.670 Like, I'm blown away, like the figma of some of the features that 00:29:23.670 --> 00:29:25.530 have, I'm like, I just didn't think, like, I never would've done that. 00:29:25.535 --> 00:29:26.160 Like, that's insane. 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:30.000 Or like, and like this intentional ignorance is like, it's tough cuz like 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:30.810 you can't go too far the opposite way. 00:29:30.840 --> 00:29:33.690 You can't like know nothing cuz then you just like, you know, it's like people who 00:29:33.690 --> 00:29:35.220 don't learn history or fail to repeat it. 00:29:35.220 --> 00:29:37.050 Like you, you need to know enough. 00:29:37.110 --> 00:29:40.320 But if you know too much, then you either get too afraid or you get too like locked 00:29:40.320 --> 00:29:41.820 into like, oh, this is how it's done 00:29:42.090 --> 00:29:45.390 and then there's like some crazy ones, which, you know, I don't advocate for or 00:29:45.390 --> 00:29:48.540 not, but like a lot of progress is made by like breaking the rules intentionally. 00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:51.570 Like, you look at Uber and like Uber was ly illegal for a long time. 00:29:51.575 --> 00:29:52.770 Like do you remember like first in San Francisco? 00:29:52.770 --> 00:29:55.240 Like Uber cars were just getting pulled over all the time and like people 00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.900 like, and like they pushed through it and like that went well for them, 00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.930 but they got like zenefits which also pushed through healthcare regulations 00:30:00.930 --> 00:30:03.120 cuz they're selling cross state lines and that did not go well for them. 00:30:03.300 --> 00:30:05.550 And like, it's always hard to find anyway. 00:30:05.550 --> 00:30:08.580 So like, there's this like intentional ignorance that I think is like really 00:30:08.580 --> 00:30:12.776 fascinating where you, you just have to know enough but not too much 00:30:12.836 --> 00:30:14.784 and it's hard to find that balance. 00:30:14.794 --> 00:30:18.588 Cuz you know, like for a bit before I started readme, I was like working 00:30:18.588 --> 00:30:20.748 on construction software and I wasn't the founder, but I was one 00:30:20.748 --> 00:30:22.038 of like the people on the team. 00:30:22.038 --> 00:30:23.958 I was like a junior founder or whatever and 00:30:23.958 --> 00:30:25.261 Matt: junior founder, 00:30:25.336 --> 00:30:25.846 Greg: It was a thing. 00:30:25.846 --> 00:30:28.715 I don't know, it was like it was one of the PayPal founders starting your company. 00:30:28.775 --> 00:30:31.365 And so he was like, they had like, I guess PayPal did this as well where 00:30:31.365 --> 00:30:33.255 there's like two tiers of founders 00:30:33.358 --> 00:30:34.023 . Yeah, no, a hundred percent. 00:30:34.023 --> 00:30:36.933 It's, it's, it's employees that make absolutely no money that, but they 00:30:36.933 --> 00:30:38.163 like, like you're a founder though 00:30:38.234 --> 00:30:38.994 Matt: Put it on your LinkedIn. 00:30:39.064 --> 00:30:42.728 Greg: Yeah, so it's not on my LinkedIn, but trust me I'm not gonna say which 00:30:42.728 --> 00:30:45.913 founder it was, but not a lot of, not a lot of, not a lot of PayPal Mafia 00:30:45.913 --> 00:30:48.798 people are getting good press these days, so but he was, he was a, he 00:30:48.798 --> 00:30:49.658 was one of the PayPal mafia people 00:30:49.678 --> 00:30:50.358 Matt: You can tweet that 00:30:52.158 --> 00:30:52.518 . Greg: That's, 00:30:52.548 --> 00:30:52.938 yeah. 00:30:52.938 --> 00:30:54.618 On Elon's site now. 00:30:55.983 --> 00:30:57.873 No, I think I'm gonna get a pass on that. 00:30:57.873 --> 00:30:58.773 I'm gonna keep that one to myself. 00:30:58.773 --> 00:31:00.943 But anyway, so I was working on it and like, one of the things that 00:31:00.943 --> 00:31:02.425 was like really interesting was like I talking to construction person, 00:31:02.425 --> 00:31:04.945 he's like, here's the weird, again, we never really did anything. 00:31:04.945 --> 00:31:07.045 Like, I was never into this idea cuz, and like, but this is what made 00:31:07.045 --> 00:31:09.235 me realize like, I don't wanna be doing this, is like, we're talking 00:31:09.235 --> 00:31:10.345 to this guy does construction. 00:31:10.345 --> 00:31:12.205 He's like, Hey, people trying to sell construction software all the time. 00:31:12.325 --> 00:31:14.695 And he's like, one of the weirdest thing about construction software is he's 00:31:14.695 --> 00:31:18.145 like, every single one, you cr you like, you create a new project or whatever, 00:31:18.145 --> 00:31:21.595 like a new like construction project and you click create a new project. 00:31:21.835 --> 00:31:25.345 And every single time he's like, every single time a tech person comes to me, the 00:31:25.345 --> 00:31:26.905 first thing is like, enter the address. 00:31:26.905 --> 00:31:30.385 And he's like, we don't have an address because we're like construction people. 00:31:30.385 --> 00:31:31.165 We're building the thing. 00:31:31.165 --> 00:31:33.145 And he's like, he's like, and like he's like, that's my 00:31:33.145 --> 00:31:34.517 like, like my like litmus test. 00:31:34.517 --> 00:31:38.029 He's like, if they ask for an address, like up front, it's like they clearly 00:31:38.029 --> 00:31:39.199 have no clue what they're doing. 00:31:39.229 --> 00:31:39.729 Matt: They don't get it 00:31:39.729 --> 00:31:40.049 Greg: Yeah. 00:31:40.269 --> 00:31:43.129 And I always thought that was like such a, like that stuck with me like, not about 00:31:43.159 --> 00:31:45.379 construction, I don't care about that person or that's not what stuck with me. 00:31:45.384 --> 00:31:48.229 But what stuck with me was like this concept of like, okay, you 00:31:48.229 --> 00:31:52.279 can't like, like you can't go if you're too into construction. 00:31:53.074 --> 00:31:56.044 Then you just create construction company that's a model of everything else out 00:31:56.044 --> 00:31:58.684 there and you just kind of like do what's already done and like what's the point of 00:31:58.684 --> 00:31:59.764 doing something that's already been done. 00:31:59.764 --> 00:32:02.194 So like, you know, something like PlanGrid, like I don't actually know their 00:32:02.194 --> 00:32:04.264 backgrounds, but like, I can't imagine they were like doing construction for 00:32:04.264 --> 00:32:05.904 20 years before they started PlanGrid. 00:32:05.966 --> 00:32:08.276 So you be an outsider, you can't be too much of an outsider. 00:32:08.306 --> 00:32:10.436 Cause if you're too much of an outsider, you're solving problems 00:32:10.436 --> 00:32:13.436 that like no one actually has or perceived problems from the outside. 00:32:13.436 --> 00:32:17.126 And like, I don't know, like I think the healthcare industry is very messed up, 00:32:17.246 --> 00:32:20.216 but I a hundred percent know that anything I were to do in the healthcare industry, 00:32:20.216 --> 00:32:24.446 like would not be solving the actual problem most likely because I'd actually 00:32:24.451 --> 00:32:25.616 know what the problem is necessarily. 00:32:26.126 --> 00:32:27.306 Matt: so do you, would you say. 00:32:28.211 --> 00:32:31.271 That in order to build a good product or a company around it, you have 00:32:31.271 --> 00:32:35.621 to sort of build it for yourself first so you understand the problem. 00:32:35.756 --> 00:32:38.816 Greg: Yeah, but that's hard because like, okay, so that being said, like, 00:32:40.076 --> 00:32:40.916 Startups. 00:32:41.036 --> 00:32:45.511 So Readme is caters to developers, like other developers like you mentioned, 00:32:45.511 --> 00:32:47.101 like, you know, the restaurant that your dad owned a restaurant. 00:32:47.101 --> 00:32:50.011 So like, that's not for yourself, but like it's for someone you know, really closely. 00:32:50.461 --> 00:32:52.231 But like outside of that, it's like tough though, cuz like, 00:32:52.231 --> 00:32:53.311 it's different skill sets. 00:32:53.311 --> 00:32:56.281 Like to your point, it's like not many people, and there are a few, 00:32:56.371 --> 00:33:00.121 not many people like work at a restaurant for 20 years and then 00:33:00.126 --> 00:33:01.081 decide to create a startup out of it. 00:33:01.081 --> 00:33:03.331 Like that's a really tough jump as well. 00:33:03.571 --> 00:33:05.671 So like, I don't know, like, I imagine most startups, like if you were to 00:33:05.676 --> 00:33:08.851 look at the people's backgrounds, I'm trying think like off the top of my 00:33:08.851 --> 00:33:10.261 head, like some like big startups like. 00:33:11.101 --> 00:33:11.971 Sometimes, sure. 00:33:11.971 --> 00:33:14.131 But like for the most, I mean, I do think that's why there's a lot of dev tools now. 00:33:14.131 --> 00:33:15.964 I do think that's why there's a lot of like I mean there's like a 00:33:15.964 --> 00:33:18.934 gigantic sectors, like there's tons of startups for like salespeople. 00:33:18.934 --> 00:33:21.989 So it's like CRMs all flavors of CRMs, all flavors like that. 00:33:21.989 --> 00:33:25.409 It's like, okay, I imagine 80% of those people who started them are 90%, 00:33:25.409 --> 00:33:28.799 were like salespeople who are like this, the current situation sucks. 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:31.093 Like, I can do my own or like, you know, tools for marketers 00:33:31.093 --> 00:33:32.113 or HubSpot and stuff like that. 00:33:32.213 --> 00:33:34.573 And like, there's just so many like tools out there that definitely are 00:33:34.603 --> 00:33:40.123 building for yourself, but like once you get out of there, like it, I 00:33:40.123 --> 00:33:42.343 feel like very, like maybe there's a co-founder or something that like 00:33:42.343 --> 00:33:43.651 did it or whatever, but I don't know. 00:33:43.681 --> 00:33:46.021 I think that's like, I don't think it's bad advice to build something 00:33:46.021 --> 00:33:48.991 for yourself, but I think it's like, I don't think it's the full picture. 00:33:48.991 --> 00:33:52.261 Like I don't think it's, cause I think, you know, again, like you can build 00:33:52.261 --> 00:33:53.491 a dev tool right now and you should. 00:33:53.496 --> 00:33:57.976 Cause it's a great market and I love it, but it's like, Everyone's like, 00:33:57.976 --> 00:33:59.146 that's every what everyone's doing. 00:33:59.146 --> 00:34:01.456 Like, if you really wanna make a ton of money, like go find like this 00:34:01.456 --> 00:34:04.576 industry that you've never heard of and like build something for it, I guess. 00:34:04.576 --> 00:34:06.496 And like, so I don't think it's like, I don't think there's advice either way. 00:34:06.496 --> 00:34:08.176 I think like both arguments really 00:34:08.221 --> 00:34:11.911 Matt: What, what's the Flexport at Ryan Peter Patterson. 00:34:13.231 --> 00:34:16.891 find that to be interesting cuz he, he started like companies before, right? 00:34:16.891 --> 00:34:20.161 And then he decided to go work for like, in the cargo ship industry. 00:34:20.326 --> 00:34:21.616 Greg: am so outta my league at talking about 00:34:21.711 --> 00:34:24.179 Matt: this, oh, I only know about this from like like startup school or 00:34:24.179 --> 00:34:25.739 something when he was talking about it. 00:34:25.769 --> 00:34:26.878 But I thought that was interesting. 00:34:26.878 --> 00:34:28.738 Like, it was like the amount of paperwork and all that stuff. 00:34:28.738 --> 00:34:30.148 And now they're huge. 00:34:30.228 --> 00:34:33.078 So that, but yeah, I don't know. 00:34:33.318 --> 00:34:38.178 How do you know, like what, you can start, what, like what do you look, what are 00:34:38.178 --> 00:34:39.318 the indicators that you would look for? 00:34:39.318 --> 00:34:40.878 Like if you were to start another company Now? 00:34:41.238 --> 00:34:41.848 Not ReadMe 00:34:42.388 --> 00:34:44.908 , not, let's say not like dev tool. 00:34:44.968 --> 00:34:45.238 Yeah. 00:34:45.658 --> 00:34:48.178 What, like what would you do and how would you like, identify what 00:34:48.178 --> 00:34:49.468 to do if you don't know what to do? 00:34:50.353 --> 00:34:50.683 Greg: Yeah. 00:34:50.683 --> 00:34:50.863 I think 00:34:50.863 --> 00:34:51.523 about this a lot. 00:34:51.585 --> 00:34:52.905 Not that, I mean, you're not sitting here thinking like, 00:34:52.905 --> 00:34:54.915 wow, daydream my next start. 00:34:55.065 --> 00:34:56.602 Cuz what I actually daydream about is 00:34:56.615 --> 00:34:58.069 Matt: cause you did the escape room thing. 00:34:58.264 --> 00:34:58.654 Greg: Oh yeah. 00:34:58.659 --> 00:35:00.064 I mean, so that's what I think about a lot. 00:35:00.069 --> 00:35:02.884 It's like, let's say whatever, for whatever reason I leave Readme tomorrow, 00:35:02.884 --> 00:35:05.638 I know exactly what I'm doing, which is so I built an escape, not leadership. 00:35:05.643 --> 00:35:05.968 This is not a 00:35:07.018 --> 00:35:09.808 I'm here, but but if I were to leave tomorrow, like I wouldn't wanna do another 00:35:09.808 --> 00:35:11.008 like venture back company right away. 00:35:11.008 --> 00:35:12.478 Like I just love the escape room. 00:35:12.478 --> 00:35:15.790 Cause I built an escape room four years ago or so, four or five years ago. 00:35:15.811 --> 00:35:19.350 And with my company we've done a bunch of escape rooms and I just like really 00:35:19.350 --> 00:35:21.540 fell in love with not escape rooms. 00:35:21.641 --> 00:35:24.341 But this concert of like physical in person, there's 00:35:24.341 --> 00:35:25.181 a few things I led about it. 00:35:25.181 --> 00:35:27.911 One was that it's not competitive in the sense that you're not competing against 00:35:27.911 --> 00:35:31.151 each other, you're working together to compete against like something together. 00:35:31.151 --> 00:35:32.171 And I, I like that so much more. 00:35:32.171 --> 00:35:33.581 Like, I dunno if you are, but I'm not. 00:35:33.581 --> 00:35:35.081 I think you are, but I'm not a competitive person. 00:35:35.081 --> 00:35:39.641 Like I don't care about like, you know, bowling cuz like if I win, I don't care. 00:35:39.641 --> 00:35:40.691 And if I lose, I don't care. 00:35:41.036 --> 00:35:41.366 Matt: hold on. 00:35:41.366 --> 00:35:43.136 Like, the first thing you went to is bowling. 00:35:43.136 --> 00:35:43.286 Yeah, 00:35:43.391 --> 00:35:43.671 Greg: Yeah. 00:35:43.751 --> 00:35:45.821 No bowling because like, it's, it's like a team bonding thing. 00:35:45.821 --> 00:35:48.461 It's like, you don't, like, you know, I know that there's other sports out 00:35:48.461 --> 00:35:50.651 there than bowling, but like, it's like, okay, like let's go do something 00:35:50.651 --> 00:35:52.014 that's, oh, lemme take a step back. 00:35:52.085 --> 00:35:55.175 I think like most team events just are drinking and like, I don't 00:35:55.180 --> 00:35:58.475 mind drinking at all, but it's like, it's not very inclusive. 00:35:58.475 --> 00:36:02.345 It's not, it's just like, it's just like, it's not an activity, it's like a lack 00:36:02.345 --> 00:36:03.725 of activity almost, and stuff like that. 00:36:03.725 --> 00:36:04.825 So it's like, okay, what do you wanna do? 00:36:04.830 --> 00:36:05.315 Instead of bowling? 00:36:05.315 --> 00:36:07.955 It's like, or sorry, instead of drinking, it's like, we can go bowling. 00:36:07.955 --> 00:36:10.355 We could like, I dunno what else you got, like, 00:36:10.700 --> 00:36:12.590 Matt: well, I know where you're going with this. 00:36:12.590 --> 00:36:13.880 And I feel the exact same way. 00:36:13.880 --> 00:36:17.047 And this is also not just team events, but conference events. 00:36:17.122 --> 00:36:18.982 Greg: Conference events, dates, anything like that. 00:36:19.177 --> 00:36:22.327 Matt: night I went to one of the happy hours and it's, they're the same 00:36:22.332 --> 00:36:23.587 every conference I've ever gone to. 00:36:23.592 --> 00:36:27.997 You go and, and they're fun, but to an extent, right, they're loud. 00:36:28.087 --> 00:36:29.587 You can, it's hard to hear each other. 00:36:29.647 --> 00:36:32.857 There's just alcohol, which isn't like, you know, it is what it is. 00:36:33.067 --> 00:36:34.087 And then that's really it. 00:36:34.087 --> 00:36:36.727 Like they're all kind of the same thing with just with different people. 00:36:36.732 --> 00:36:37.067 Mm-hmm. 00:36:37.147 --> 00:36:39.457 and like, I, I wish there was something more there. 00:36:39.877 --> 00:36:41.227 Greg: Yeah, so that's what I loved escape from was cause 00:36:41.227 --> 00:36:42.337 like, it was like a activity 00:36:42.337 --> 00:36:43.657 where like, cuz there's 00:36:43.657 --> 00:36:46.237 like it's activity where you get to like work together and it mixes 00:36:46.237 --> 00:36:49.117 you up and it's, but you're not competing against each other. 00:36:49.122 --> 00:36:52.147 Like no one gets their feelings hurt cuz you're all working together or maybe you 00:36:52.147 --> 00:36:53.347 all, you all get feeling hurt together. 00:36:53.347 --> 00:36:54.607 It's not that bad if you lose together. 00:36:54.877 --> 00:36:57.907 So I got really into like the, the social dynamics of like an 00:36:57.907 --> 00:36:58.837 escape room and stuff like that. 00:36:58.837 --> 00:37:01.354 And so I started getting bored of going to them because like, once you've done 00:37:01.354 --> 00:37:03.844 like 10 of them, it's like, okay, I kind of get like, you're like, okay, 00:37:03.844 --> 00:37:06.244 I get like how this all works and like, you kind of like, they're not, 00:37:06.304 --> 00:37:09.454 not fun, but like, and also like as I was getting into them, like there 00:37:09.459 --> 00:37:12.874 was a, the quality started to go down because like, there's an explosion them. 00:37:12.874 --> 00:37:14.734 So like some would be really good and some would be really crappy. 00:37:15.154 --> 00:37:17.554 But I got really interested in like this concert of all of them and I was 00:37:17.554 --> 00:37:18.544 like, I'm gonna build an escape room. 00:37:18.544 --> 00:37:21.124 So I started just kind of like doing it in my, in my, not really. 00:37:21.184 --> 00:37:21.334 Okay. 00:37:21.334 --> 00:37:23.614 So lemme put it for, I didn't like sit down like, I'm gonna start an escape room. 00:37:23.614 --> 00:37:27.214 I was like, I was like, I had this idea was like, I love for team bonding events. 00:37:27.214 --> 00:37:29.734 Like what if it was like an escape room where it was like you have one hour. 00:37:30.049 --> 00:37:31.408 To launch your startups. 00:37:31.408 --> 00:37:33.868 Like you have like a million dollars and like, instead of an hour, it 00:37:33.868 --> 00:37:35.998 is an hour, but like you watched your bank account go down, you have 00:37:36.208 --> 00:37:37.258 one hour to launch your startup. 00:37:37.258 --> 00:37:38.818 So I was like, I wanna call it start escape. 00:37:38.823 --> 00:37:40.378 And like, I would like do escapements. 00:37:40.378 --> 00:37:42.508 I'd like, oh, like I could see that, I could like take this 00:37:42.508 --> 00:37:43.618 and like do a take and this. 00:37:43.618 --> 00:37:45.328 And like, I started like designing in my head. 00:37:45.328 --> 00:37:46.588 I wasn't like trying to start anything. 00:37:46.623 --> 00:37:48.825 Cause I had read me and one day I got to the point where I was like, 00:37:49.365 --> 00:37:50.445 I just really wanna build this now. 00:37:50.445 --> 00:37:53.865 Like, I, I just like, cuz I don't know, I've, I've never really been 00:37:53.865 --> 00:37:55.935 able to kinda articulate this, but I'm sure you'll feel the same way. 00:37:55.935 --> 00:38:00.465 It's like every amazing thing that has ever happened happened because someone 00:38:01.515 --> 00:38:05.143 just like did something that was like very like like had a, like, just something 00:38:05.143 --> 00:38:08.053 like, like out of the, they, they woke up and they did something different that day. 00:38:08.053 --> 00:38:08.383 Right? 00:38:08.383 --> 00:38:10.003 Like maybe it's like you. 00:38:10.783 --> 00:38:12.883 You know, you're married, I don't know, like, I don't actually dunno 00:38:12.883 --> 00:38:15.209 how you met wife, but like I'm sure I did at some point, but like, you did 00:38:15.214 --> 00:38:16.379 something different that day, I'm sure. 00:38:16.379 --> 00:38:18.419 Or you asked her out at least, or you did something like, there's 00:38:18.419 --> 00:38:21.389 like a, you made a jump and like now your life is completely different. 00:38:21.389 --> 00:38:23.579 Or like, with reading me, it's like, again, it's not a big deal. 00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:25.439 It's not like I like woke up one day and I was like, I'm gonna start reading me. 00:38:25.439 --> 00:38:28.499 It was like, I just chose instead of doing something else to do 00:38:28.499 --> 00:38:29.609 this and then I did more of it. 00:38:29.609 --> 00:38:33.569 And like, it was a, it wasn't a conscious decision, but it was like I didn't just 00:38:33.569 --> 00:38:38.129 exist and I didn't just like, get up, go to work, grab dinner, go to bed. 00:38:38.129 --> 00:38:39.869 Like I like did something different. 00:38:39.874 --> 00:38:42.359 And like, I brought up like marriage cuz like, I think it's 00:38:42.359 --> 00:38:43.259 just everything in your life. 00:38:43.259 --> 00:38:44.549 Like, very rarely do things just happen. 00:38:44.554 --> 00:38:46.499 Like it's, it's not even intentional necessarily. 00:38:46.499 --> 00:38:48.959 It's not like you like wake up and like, I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna meet the 00:38:48.959 --> 00:38:50.039 person I'm gonna get married to today. 00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:53.549 It's like you just do something that's like a little out of the ordinary. 00:38:53.550 --> 00:38:57.508 And like it's for the escape from, it's like everyone can, like everyone has 00:38:57.508 --> 00:39:01.108 an idea obviously, and like everyone has startup ideas or company ideas or 00:39:01.113 --> 00:39:02.788 ideas for a TV show and stuff like that. 00:39:02.793 --> 00:39:04.393 But it's like, Okay. 00:39:04.513 --> 00:39:07.183 But like the ones that got made, it was because like someone sat 00:39:07.183 --> 00:39:10.963 down, wrote the screenplay and like mailed it in or something like that. 00:39:10.963 --> 00:39:14.893 And it's like, it doesn't seem like much, but it's huge to actually like do it. 00:39:14.893 --> 00:39:18.373 And like people just don't, myself included, like for every one thing 00:39:18.378 --> 00:39:21.283 I do, there's 2000 things I don't do and I'm like, I should have 00:39:21.283 --> 00:39:22.873 gone there that time and I didn't. 00:39:22.903 --> 00:39:26.083 And like, or I should have like, you know, made this happen. 00:39:26.113 --> 00:39:27.673 So anyway, so I got like, I got to this point where I was 00:39:27.673 --> 00:39:27.763 like 00:39:28.333 --> 00:39:30.253 I just hate thinking about stuff and I just wanna do something. 00:39:30.253 --> 00:39:31.633 So I was like, I'm gonna rent a place. 00:39:31.633 --> 00:39:34.652 So I rented a place in San Francisco and I was like, I'm just gonna do it. 00:39:34.652 --> 00:39:34.982 Cause like, 00:39:35.672 --> 00:39:37.472 I don't know, I could be sitting on this podcast too and being 00:39:37.472 --> 00:39:39.662 like, I had this idea for an escape room and it was really cool. 00:39:39.662 --> 00:39:42.452 And you guys, you know, somebody, I'll build it and like, that's 00:39:42.452 --> 00:39:43.622 cool to talk about too, I guess. 00:39:43.622 --> 00:39:47.252 But like, that jump to actually like do it is like, I think everyone in 00:39:47.257 --> 00:39:50.546 their lives has done something like move to a new city or you know, drop 00:39:50.551 --> 00:39:52.676 outta college or go to college or. 00:39:53.966 --> 00:39:56.546 You know, it's so easy just to sit there and like at your job 00:39:56.546 --> 00:39:57.836 that you hate every single day. 00:39:57.836 --> 00:40:01.196 But like sometimes you're like, you know what I'm gonna go to, I don't 00:40:01.196 --> 00:40:02.246 know, where do people go to find jobs? 00:40:02.246 --> 00:40:04.616 monster.com or whatever, and you're like, I'm gonna find a new job. 00:40:04.886 --> 00:40:05.696 And I wouldn't go there 00:40:05.796 --> 00:40:07.346 Matt: I think everyone uses like LinkedIn now. 00:40:07.346 --> 00:40:07.706 Greg: Sure. 00:40:07.711 --> 00:40:08.276 I don't know, man. 00:40:08.344 --> 00:40:08.627 But 00:40:08.837 --> 00:40:09.827 Matt: or they just get a bunch of recruiter 00:40:10.067 --> 00:40:10.427 Greg: yeah. 00:40:10.487 --> 00:40:10.577 I 00:40:10.577 --> 00:40:12.587 don't think anyone's like looking for jobs in tech, but like, but 00:40:12.587 --> 00:40:15.167 like as a tech, people are like, you know, how do you jump up? 00:40:15.167 --> 00:40:15.347 Cause. 00:40:15.962 --> 00:40:18.032 You just one day you're like, I'm gonna do this. 00:40:18.032 --> 00:40:21.692 And like you just get that, like that rush of like, cuz people very few, like 00:40:21.782 --> 00:40:24.722 again, I don't like Elon at all, but like he does have the sustained, as much as I 00:40:24.727 --> 00:40:29.612 dislike him, he does have the sustained ability to just make things happen 00:40:29.612 --> 00:40:31.112 every single minute of every single day. 00:40:31.112 --> 00:40:33.602 And like half the time it light things on fire and all that. 00:40:33.602 --> 00:40:36.152 But like, he's kinda interesting where he's always doing something 00:40:36.212 --> 00:40:37.232 and I think that's really annoying. 00:40:37.232 --> 00:40:39.182 I would hate to be anywhere near him cuz like, it's like a bull in 00:40:39.182 --> 00:40:40.892 a China shop cause like all that. 00:40:40.892 --> 00:40:41.852 But like most people don't have that. 00:40:41.852 --> 00:40:45.722 Most people have a burst where it's like you, you do something big and then you 00:40:45.727 --> 00:40:49.022 spend a lot of time like dealing with the good or bad consequences of that. 00:40:49.022 --> 00:40:51.872 So like, you like get up and you're like, I get a new job and you get 00:40:51.877 --> 00:40:54.602 it and then you can't just like get a new job two weeks later. 00:40:54.602 --> 00:40:57.332 Like you're like, okay now I have to like, you know, you go back and down, 00:40:57.332 --> 00:40:58.682 like your energy kind of goes back down. 00:40:58.682 --> 00:40:59.912 You're like, you're coasting a little bit. 00:40:59.912 --> 00:41:01.922 Stuff like that cause you're tired or, or whatever else. 00:41:01.922 --> 00:41:04.497 And or you focus on different things or like, you know, your 00:41:04.497 --> 00:41:07.017 health got bad so you're like, okay, I'm gonna go get healthy again. 00:41:07.017 --> 00:41:07.347 Stuff like that. 00:41:07.347 --> 00:41:10.107 But again, that's another thing, it's like, I decided to go to the gym today 00:41:10.107 --> 00:41:12.477 and like be really like, it's like that, like everyone wants to go to the gym. 00:41:12.477 --> 00:41:16.347 Everyone wants to be like, you know, gorgeous and healthy, but like, you just, 00:41:16.437 --> 00:41:19.214 it's just one day you do it and it's I don't know where we're going with all 00:41:19.214 --> 00:41:21.734 this or where I was going with all this, but like, I do think like it's this thing 00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:24.854 where it's like that for me, the escape room was like, I was like, I could just 00:41:24.854 --> 00:41:27.074 like talk about it or I could just do it. 00:41:27.074 --> 00:41:31.004 And like, it was, it's, it's, it's, it's usually like, there's usually 00:41:31.004 --> 00:41:34.664 like a pivot point and for me it was like, I actually like found a location, 00:41:34.664 --> 00:41:37.664 like signed a lease and like once I did that, the ball was rolling. 00:41:37.664 --> 00:41:39.944 Like I couldn't get out of, it wasn't like, I could be like, ah, just kidding. 00:41:39.949 --> 00:41:43.304 Now I have like a $5,000 lease in the heart of San Francisco that I'm just not 00:41:43.309 --> 00:41:44.585 gonna do anything with the next two years. 00:41:44.614 --> 00:41:47.647 So I did that and I so I just like, you know, was like, I'm gonna do it and I 00:41:47.652 --> 00:41:50.227 did it and then I like had to build the escape room and it was a ton of fun. 00:41:50.227 --> 00:41:53.959 Like, I had I think it was like 7,000 people, a little under 7,000 00:41:53.959 --> 00:41:55.274 people went through it in two years. 00:41:55.338 --> 00:41:56.328 It was, it was awesome. 00:41:56.328 --> 00:41:59.564 Like Steph Curry did my escape room for his 30th birthday. 00:41:59.631 --> 00:42:00.785 One time I was doing it. 00:42:00.845 --> 00:42:04.577 And so I am my current job as CEO read me. 00:42:04.607 --> 00:42:08.185 And I was sitting there with my laptop and I had a read me logo on my, on my laptop. 00:42:08.185 --> 00:42:11.255 And I'm sitting there working at like 7:00 PM at this like, just job. 00:42:11.965 --> 00:42:14.897 And someone comes in like a team comes in and I'm like, oh, hey, welcome everyone. 00:42:14.897 --> 00:42:15.827 And I do like this spiel and stuff. 00:42:15.827 --> 00:42:18.077 Cause like, we had someone who ran it, but like, every once in a 00:42:18.077 --> 00:42:20.267 while, if they couldn't do it, I would jump in or I actually down 00:42:20.267 --> 00:42:21.257 nights and weekends once in a while. 00:42:21.257 --> 00:42:23.537 Cause like then I could see what was broken, what was working, and I could 00:42:23.542 --> 00:42:24.767 like, make tweaks and stuff like that. 00:42:24.767 --> 00:42:27.077 And I, I just didn't like, it wasn't, it was something to do. 00:42:27.082 --> 00:42:28.547 And like, it's pretty easy to Jo by the way. 00:42:28.547 --> 00:42:30.737 Like, you sit there, you like bring people in, you spend two minutes with 00:42:30.737 --> 00:42:33.017 the spiel, they go in and then you just have an hour basically where you're 00:42:33.017 --> 00:42:34.967 like, kind of watch them on the screen. 00:42:34.967 --> 00:42:36.017 You can like mess around, do it whatever you want. 00:42:36.077 --> 00:42:39.527 So I do it, like I have my company ReadMe logo on the, on the thing. 00:42:39.527 --> 00:42:42.229 And these like, it's like four or five guys come in and they're like, whoa. 00:42:42.289 --> 00:42:43.159 Like, how do you gonna read me? 00:42:43.189 --> 00:42:45.207 And I was like, oh, I'm this is weird. 00:42:45.207 --> 00:42:46.241 But I'm like it's my company. 00:42:46.241 --> 00:42:46.931 I'm the founder. 00:42:46.961 --> 00:42:47.771 And they're like, oh. 00:42:49.406 --> 00:42:50.816 We, we invested in you. 00:42:51.116 --> 00:42:52.916 And I'm like, cuz they're VCs. 00:42:52.916 --> 00:42:54.026 Like they weren't my partner. 00:42:54.056 --> 00:42:56.186 So the way VCs firm works, there's like, like a bunch of partners. 00:42:56.186 --> 00:42:58.196 So you meet like your partner and like a few other people, but like, 00:42:58.196 --> 00:43:00.026 you don't meet most partners, but they all know about you. 00:43:00.356 --> 00:43:02.816 And I'm like, oh, I swear things are going well. 00:43:02.816 --> 00:43:03.386 This is like, 00:43:04.406 --> 00:43:05.816 This is, and they were totally fine. 00:43:05.816 --> 00:43:06.446 They loved it. 00:43:06.451 --> 00:43:07.496 They're like, we need to do a selfie. 00:43:07.501 --> 00:43:10.376 So like, we did a selfie of me and my like, my little like polo 00:43:10.376 --> 00:43:11.546 shirt, that's a star escape. 00:43:11.576 --> 00:43:12.206 And like all of them. 00:43:12.206 --> 00:43:15.146 And they sent it to my partner and I was like, this can go one of two ways. 00:43:15.151 --> 00:43:19.256 He's either gonna be like, cool or he is gonna be like, all right, so 00:43:19.796 --> 00:43:24.310 you're working a, you're working an hourly job now to make ends meet. 00:43:24.310 --> 00:43:25.210 And but now it was great. 00:43:25.210 --> 00:43:25.540 So, 00:43:25.740 --> 00:43:26.465 Matt: that's hilarious. 00:43:27.055 --> 00:43:27.365 Alright. 00:43:27.385 --> 00:43:28.714 So we gotta wrap up soon. 00:43:28.796 --> 00:43:30.056 I have a couple questions. 00:43:30.101 --> 00:43:30.311 Greg: Okay. 00:43:30.581 --> 00:43:31.001 Lightning round. 00:43:31.526 --> 00:43:31.676 Matt: Yeah. 00:43:31.736 --> 00:43:32.466 Lightning round. 00:43:32.496 --> 00:43:34.296 What tips for managers, 00:43:36.321 --> 00:43:37.895 Greg: Okay are you a new manager or not? 00:43:38.240 --> 00:43:39.860 Matt: Let's say you're, it doesn't, let's say new. 00:43:40.170 --> 00:43:40.649 Greg: Okay. 00:43:40.649 --> 00:43:45.341 The biggest tip I have, so there's obvious tips, which is like, care 00:43:45.341 --> 00:43:47.541 for your employees, listen to 'em, have meetings and stuff like that. 00:43:47.541 --> 00:43:52.379 I think the biggest tip that I see that I think that is that you have two teams. 00:43:52.379 --> 00:43:54.179 You have your team and the company. 00:43:54.299 --> 00:43:56.129 And what I mean by that is it's not that the company matters. 00:43:56.129 --> 00:43:59.969 Like when I say company, I don't mean like the Delaware C Corp in, you 00:43:59.969 --> 00:44:02.429 know, on a piece of paper in Delaware where you're like, you're, we're all 00:44:02.429 --> 00:44:03.389 capitalists all trying to make money. 00:44:03.419 --> 00:44:04.049 That's what I mean. 00:44:04.049 --> 00:44:07.858 It's that the worst thing I think you can do for your team is create an isolated 00:44:07.858 --> 00:44:11.480 environment where yeah, sure you're really good to your team, but You know, you're 00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:13.610 kind of hurting your team because you, they don't have the opportunities cause 00:44:13.830 --> 00:44:15.170 it's very isolated and stuff like that. 00:44:15.170 --> 00:44:17.720 So you need to really care about your team and that's definitely 00:44:17.720 --> 00:44:18.510 your number one priority. 00:44:18.515 --> 00:44:22.517 But like, you also have a team of your peers, so other managers your boss 00:44:22.517 --> 00:44:25.547 who maybe you don't like your boss and that's totally fine, but at the end of 00:44:25.547 --> 00:44:29.117 the day, you, you, like, you, you have to play ball with everyone around you. 00:44:29.122 --> 00:44:32.567 Cuz very rarely, like, unless you're like a brilliant team of like, 00:44:32.807 --> 00:44:35.297 you know, such high performing jerks that like it works out. 00:44:36.317 --> 00:44:37.067 It's very easy to create. 00:44:37.067 --> 00:44:40.577 Like it's a hard balance to create that isolated culture where people 00:44:40.577 --> 00:44:44.402 like, feel like they're on a certain team in a larger company but also get 00:44:44.402 --> 00:44:47.282 the chances and opportunities, you know, from the rest of the company. 00:44:47.282 --> 00:44:50.552 So I think it's, it's a really hard balance to both like care about the people 00:44:50.557 --> 00:44:54.272 below you, which everyone should do, but also make sure that you care about like, 00:44:54.272 --> 00:44:56.882 the people to your side so that you're not too isolated and you're not creating 00:44:56.882 --> 00:44:58.860 this like, weird island at a company. 00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:01.740 Because like, I don't know, if you worked at a company where like there's like a 00:45:01.740 --> 00:45:04.560 team that's kind of an island and it's like nothing gets in, nothing gets out, 00:45:04.560 --> 00:45:06.210 and it's like, I dunno what to do here. 00:45:06.319 --> 00:45:07.819 This, by the way, if anyone's listening that works at Read Me, 00:45:07.819 --> 00:45:08.869 I'm not talking from experience. 00:45:08.869 --> 00:45:09.349 It rude me. 00:45:09.349 --> 00:45:11.449 Just like in my past, like at Brazil and stuff like that, I 00:45:11.449 --> 00:45:14.749 used to see like, just different teams would be like very isolated. 00:45:14.749 --> 00:45:17.989 It's like the, the manager's job is to protect people but not 00:45:17.989 --> 00:45:20.869 protect 'em too much because you still need like that in and out. 00:45:20.869 --> 00:45:23.179 Like it can't just be a like, like a like. 00:45:23.989 --> 00:45:25.099 Like a, what's the word I look for? 00:45:25.099 --> 00:45:27.739 Like a sealed like thing, cuz that's not how companies work. 00:45:27.739 --> 00:45:31.219 Like even if, and I, you know, I'm not a huge fan of capitalism per se, 00:45:31.219 --> 00:45:33.109 but like, even if you're like, I don't care about like, capitalism in the 00:45:33.109 --> 00:45:34.069 company, making money, like all that. 00:45:34.069 --> 00:45:36.979 Like, you still kind of have to care about other people in the company 00:45:36.979 --> 00:45:39.597 and like, you know, be a good place to work or a good team to work with. 00:45:39.602 --> 00:45:41.037 So that's my answer. 00:45:41.997 --> 00:45:42.478 Matt: Okay. 00:45:42.493 --> 00:45:43.513 Do you think you. 00:45:44.863 --> 00:45:48.943 If you're going into like a computer science programming or technical field, 00:45:48.943 --> 00:45:49.916 do you think you need to go to college? 00:45:49.919 --> 00:45:53.085 Greg: No, but you can't I'm, you can't expect someone to 00:45:53.090 --> 00:45:53.727 teach you how to program. 00:45:53.727 --> 00:45:55.486 I don't think that you can be taught how to program. 00:45:55.486 --> 00:45:56.536 I think you have to learn how to program. 00:45:56.610 --> 00:46:00.390 And I don't know exactly how you described that, but like, you can spend, like, 00:46:00.390 --> 00:46:01.440 you and I took the exact same class. 00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:02.220 We went to college together. 00:46:02.220 --> 00:46:05.790 If you didn't get that, and like, there are people who send the exact same 00:46:05.795 --> 00:46:09.060 classes that we did every single day and like, gun to their head, couldn't 00:46:09.060 --> 00:46:10.020 write a line of code right now. 00:46:10.050 --> 00:46:12.480 Cuz like, it's one of those things where like, yeah, could you 00:46:12.540 --> 00:46:13.680 like, can you pick up some stuff? 00:46:13.710 --> 00:46:14.340 Sure. 00:46:14.640 --> 00:46:17.325 But like, The problem with programming. 00:46:17.325 --> 00:46:19.215 So when we did programming, it was not a lucrative career. 00:46:19.310 --> 00:46:20.690 Like it was, it was fine. 00:46:20.690 --> 00:46:21.800 Like none of us were worried about it. 00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.200 But like, it wasn't like, you know, Silicon Valley wasn't what it is now. 00:46:24.200 --> 00:46:26.900 When we started in 2000, year 2007, I was thousand six, maybe 00:46:26.900 --> 00:46:27.620 year a little bit later, but 00:46:27.643 --> 00:46:27.958 yeah, 00:46:27.998 --> 00:46:30.628 And like, it wasn't a lucrative career necessarily, and like by the time we 00:46:30.628 --> 00:46:32.788 like graduated it was like a lot better and like, things were pretty good. 00:46:32.788 --> 00:46:35.536 But like the reason that was like, you can't, but like, you can't just 00:46:35.536 --> 00:46:39.706 sit like there's other careers to get into if you kind of wanna be taught 00:46:39.706 --> 00:46:40.576 and like learn stuff like that. 00:46:40.576 --> 00:46:41.896 Like you have to like to program. 00:46:41.896 --> 00:46:44.446 I think like, I'm not saying you have to do it on nights and weekends every 00:46:44.446 --> 00:46:47.326 night and weekend, but you kind of have to, especially early on, you 00:46:47.326 --> 00:46:48.296 have to build stuff to make stuff. 00:46:48.501 --> 00:46:49.156 You have to try stuff. 00:46:49.161 --> 00:46:52.246 Like, I don't believe that whether there's a dev bootcamp and dev 00:46:52.246 --> 00:46:54.586 bootcamp's really cool because they actually make you do projects. 00:46:54.586 --> 00:46:56.206 Like they, they, they know that and they force that. 00:46:56.206 --> 00:46:58.486 Whereas like in school they don't really like, it's like we did 00:46:58.486 --> 00:47:00.066 projects, but it was like homework. 00:47:00.071 --> 00:47:04.366 Whereas like, but you just have to like, you have to commit to liking it and to 00:47:04.366 --> 00:47:08.446 doing it on nights and weekends or in your own time and to really like it because 00:47:08.446 --> 00:47:11.881 like, otherwise it's uphill battle because like, programming is not fun to do. 00:47:11.881 --> 00:47:12.811 I love it more than anything. 00:47:12.811 --> 00:47:13.411 It's fun for me. 00:47:13.411 --> 00:47:16.915 It's relaxing, but like, if you don't like it, it's not fun, I don't think. 00:47:16.915 --> 00:47:17.218 Matt: Think, yeah, 00:47:17.593 --> 00:47:18.793 Greg: and you have to like be, I think you just have to commit. 00:47:18.793 --> 00:47:21.613 So I don't think it matters if you like teach yourself, you go to classes. 00:47:21.793 --> 00:47:25.513 I do think classes are nice because like there's just a world of stuff. 00:47:25.513 --> 00:47:28.153 Like you need someone who's smarter than you to like tell you what to do. 00:47:28.158 --> 00:47:31.153 And like a mentor would be great, but like people don't have the ability to mentor. 00:47:31.153 --> 00:47:32.263 It's like really hard to be a mentor. 00:47:32.263 --> 00:47:34.273 So like, you know, dev bootcamp is basically you're 00:47:34.273 --> 00:47:35.402 paying for a mentor almost. 00:47:35.472 --> 00:47:36.582 So I think the answer is definitely no. 00:47:36.582 --> 00:47:38.892 And if I didn't go to college at all, I think it would've totally been fine. 00:47:38.892 --> 00:47:40.872 Cause like I learned how to program my own, but like, I think 00:47:40.872 --> 00:47:42.402 you need to want to program. 00:47:42.402 --> 00:47:44.892 And if you don't, there's a ton of other really phenomenal careers 00:47:44.892 --> 00:47:47.496 out there that you're gonna have a lot less of enough help battle on. 00:47:48.286 --> 00:47:51.216 Matt: I think at RIT there was a lot of people who were like, sort 00:47:51.221 --> 00:47:52.506 of self taught before they came. 00:47:52.506 --> 00:47:52.776 Yeah. 00:47:52.896 --> 00:47:53.886 That was my feeling. 00:47:53.886 --> 00:47:54.186 Yep. 00:47:54.306 --> 00:47:54.606 Yeah. 00:47:54.666 --> 00:47:57.281 Greg: And I don't some of the best programmers I know, by the way, went 00:47:57.281 --> 00:48:01.181 to college and you know, learned on, like, learned like their first line of 00:48:01.181 --> 00:48:02.411 code they ever wrote was in a class. 00:48:02.471 --> 00:48:03.561 And they're phenomenal. 00:48:03.566 --> 00:48:05.891 Like, that doesn't mean that if you didn't know how to program before. 00:48:06.161 --> 00:48:06.341 Yeah. 00:48:06.521 --> 00:48:08.051 But you have to like it. 00:48:08.051 --> 00:48:09.371 And you have to like, be curious. 00:48:09.461 --> 00:48:10.481 You have to like, want to learn. 00:48:10.481 --> 00:48:13.991 Like, no matter how good the teacher is, there's only so much 00:48:13.991 --> 00:48:15.311 that you'll get out that teacher. 00:48:15.311 --> 00:48:18.401 Like, you need to be the one, like, not forever, like I haven't, I don't 00:48:18.401 --> 00:48:21.221 read blog posts or anything like that anymore, but like, you have to like 00:48:21.641 --> 00:48:24.311 be curious and like, you know, I'm trying to think like, cause I can't 00:48:24.316 --> 00:48:25.361 even give like prescribed stuff. 00:48:25.361 --> 00:48:27.671 Cause like anytime I say anything it's like, okay, go to this website. 00:48:27.676 --> 00:48:28.301 Like, that's not what I mean. 00:48:28.301 --> 00:48:31.061 Like, you just have to like, be like, I wonder if I could fix that and do it. 00:48:31.066 --> 00:48:33.761 Like, you have to have that mindset of like, I'm gonna solve 00:48:33.761 --> 00:48:37.331 it and then like, and like just brute force your way through it. 00:48:37.331 --> 00:48:37.931 And it takes time. 00:48:37.931 --> 00:48:39.641 It takes a lot of time, which is really tough. 00:48:40.211 --> 00:48:42.731 Matt: well, just to add to that, a lot of the, a lot of really good 00:48:42.736 --> 00:48:45.741 programmers that I know didn't study computer science or anything. 00:48:45.801 --> 00:48:49.251 They got into programming after they were like architects before or whatever, 00:48:49.311 --> 00:48:51.801 you know, like, they're like, I wanna be an architect, or I wanna be a doctor. 00:48:51.801 --> 00:48:52.371 I wanna be a lawyer. 00:48:52.371 --> 00:48:54.081 And then they're like, got naco and they're like, I love this. 00:48:54.081 --> 00:48:54.171 Yeah. 00:48:54.681 --> 00:48:55.791 And they're amazing. 00:48:56.001 --> 00:48:56.271 Yeah. 00:48:56.331 --> 00:48:56.661 Yeah. 00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:57.178 Alright. 00:48:57.838 --> 00:48:58.228 Okay. 00:48:58.888 --> 00:48:59.848 Pineapple on pizza. 00:49:00.888 --> 00:49:01.378 Greg: Yeah. 00:49:02.608 --> 00:49:05.608 Not my top 10 choice, but like, I like it. 00:49:05.728 --> 00:49:05.908 You're 00:49:05.998 --> 00:49:06.398 Matt: okay with it? 00:49:06.398 --> 00:49:06.638 Yeah. 00:49:06.718 --> 00:49:07.168 Okay. 00:49:07.768 --> 00:49:08.848 You can't go to Italy now. 00:49:09.478 --> 00:49:09.748 Greg: That's okay. 00:49:12.068 --> 00:49:13.528 I, I mean, I don't love it, but like, 00:49:14.278 --> 00:49:14.668 I like it. 00:49:14.998 --> 00:49:15.388 I don't like it. 00:49:15.388 --> 00:49:15.718 I'll eat it. 00:49:15.778 --> 00:49:16.588 Like I'm very happy. 00:49:16.588 --> 00:49:16.828 Eat it. 00:49:16.828 --> 00:49:18.568 It's like I don't, I'm not a picky person. 00:49:18.748 --> 00:49:19.168 Matt: Yeah. 00:49:19.468 --> 00:49:19.828 Okay. 00:49:19.834 --> 00:49:20.705 What are you most excited about? 00:49:20.710 --> 00:49:22.060 Greg: Now I'm getting hungry cuz of that question. 00:49:22.060 --> 00:49:23.818 So I think I'm gonna order of pineapple pizza after this. 00:49:23.818 --> 00:49:24.936 What am I most excited about? 00:49:24.936 --> 00:49:25.164 Okay. 00:49:25.164 --> 00:49:26.385 And this is a very tech answer. 00:49:26.414 --> 00:49:28.844 Also like if you're watching the video, it's gotten increasingly dark. 00:49:28.844 --> 00:49:30.264 We're just sitting in the dark at this point. 00:49:30.268 --> 00:49:31.864 But there's a lot things I'm excited about. 00:49:31.961 --> 00:49:33.251 Cuz I mentioned before about the curiosity. 00:49:33.256 --> 00:49:36.821 Like that's my favorite quality in people and in myself is just 00:49:36.826 --> 00:49:40.451 like, The ability to like just constantly be excited about stuff. 00:49:40.498 --> 00:49:42.520 And for me, this is a very tech one. 00:49:43.225 --> 00:49:47.395 I started ReadMe seven or eight years ago, I picked like Angular 1.2 cuz it was, 00:49:47.395 --> 00:49:50.395 you know, react wasn't quite where I, I didn't, whatever, it doesn't really matter 00:49:50.395 --> 00:49:55.016 why, but like Webpac it was really hard to like get react set up cuz like Webpac was 00:49:55.021 --> 00:49:56.846 like, if it existed, it wasn't very good. 00:49:56.851 --> 00:49:58.856 It's still not very good, but like, it was just tough to get all set up. 00:49:58.856 --> 00:50:00.926 So I went with Angular and it was the biggest mistake of my life probably. 00:50:00.926 --> 00:50:03.806 But, so I started writing code, so then I got to this like route where I was 00:50:03.806 --> 00:50:06.386 like, do you remember like when we were in school, I know these are lighting 00:50:06.386 --> 00:50:09.273 rounds, but I'm going along you can edit this later, but you know, in, you 00:50:09.273 --> 00:50:10.323 know, in school where like you'd meet 00:50:10.338 --> 00:50:11.478 Matt: I don't think I can make you talk any 00:50:11.603 --> 00:50:11.883 Greg: faster. 00:50:12.403 --> 00:50:12.963 right? 00:50:12.963 --> 00:50:14.843 So, you know, in school you're meeting someone I 00:50:15.428 --> 00:50:16.188 Matt: m take it easy eminem 00:50:16.243 --> 00:50:19.153 Greg: You know, in school when you'd meet someone who's like really old, 00:50:19.153 --> 00:50:21.954 like they were like 30 you know, we're like in school and like, they're 00:50:21.954 --> 00:50:24.234 like, they're like still using like an old Java framework and you're 00:50:24.234 --> 00:50:25.164 like, I will never be like that. 00:50:25.164 --> 00:50:27.474 I'll never get lazy and like stop learning. 00:50:27.534 --> 00:50:30.924 And then like now I'm still using like tech from like 10 years ago. 00:50:30.929 --> 00:50:34.974 I'm still using Express and like the exact same like setup that I used 00:50:35.019 --> 00:50:35.739 Matt: Express no longer. 00:50:35.739 --> 00:50:36.129 Cool. 00:50:36.129 --> 00:50:36.519 Like what? 00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:37.159 Greg: No, God no. 00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:37.842 I mean, I still like it. 00:50:37.842 --> 00:50:40.422 I still use it for stuff, but like, I kinda like jQuery, I use jQuery. 00:50:40.442 --> 00:50:42.062 I still use jQuery for everything. 00:50:43.022 --> 00:50:44.342 I love jQuery, but that's not the point. 00:50:45.002 --> 00:50:46.432 Matt: does John sig still use jQuery? 00:50:46.452 --> 00:50:47.462 Greg: No, of course not. 00:50:47.558 --> 00:50:51.338 So where I'm going with this is like my, basically without talking about 00:50:51.338 --> 00:50:55.268 specific technologies, I feel like my, like the, I, when I wanted to write 00:50:55.268 --> 00:50:56.648 code, I didn't wanna learn anymore. 00:50:56.648 --> 00:50:59.378 I just wanted to like, use my tech stack I knew and just be comfortable. 00:50:59.468 --> 00:51:02.558 And like, I did that for like three, four or five years past 3, 4, 5 years. 00:51:02.558 --> 00:51:05.048 And like just recently I've kind of flipped like, okay, 00:51:05.288 --> 00:51:06.668 I wanna like try new stuff. 00:51:06.673 --> 00:51:08.768 Cause like, when you're trying to get something done, you don't wanna 00:51:08.773 --> 00:51:09.998 learn new technology at the same time. 00:51:09.998 --> 00:51:11.558 And now I'm like, I wanna like learn new technology. 00:51:11.558 --> 00:51:15.758 And I, I started using like Next and like, it's just a breath of fresh air. 00:51:15.788 --> 00:51:17.408 Like there's some stuff I don't like about it, I could complain, 00:51:17.408 --> 00:51:22.748 but it's like, okay, it's such a nice time to be programming it. 00:51:22.748 --> 00:51:26.768 Just like for the first time ever using next, like using. 00:51:27.278 --> 00:51:30.518 A framework that was built by someone who's actually made a website before. 00:51:30.668 --> 00:51:33.668 Because like, it's like if you use it, and again, I'm not gonna check trash 00:51:33.668 --> 00:51:36.308 other stuff, but like you use, like, you know, I've been, is my first language. 00:51:36.308 --> 00:51:38.318 Like a lot of these were like people who like understood 00:51:38.678 --> 00:51:40.388 computers enough to bridge the gap. 00:51:40.388 --> 00:51:41.708 So a human being can understand it. 00:51:42.098 --> 00:51:44.888 But like now it's like, but like it always felt like you were like 00:51:44.888 --> 00:51:46.088 speaking the computers language. 00:51:46.088 --> 00:51:48.308 So you're like, you know, like you're trying to do something 00:51:48.308 --> 00:51:50.138 that's like, oh, well that's a put, or that's a poster, that's a get. 00:51:50.138 --> 00:51:53.348 And it was like, you're like thinking of these like, like how computers think and 00:51:53.353 --> 00:51:54.908 like you get really good at that, right? 00:51:54.913 --> 00:51:55.418 At some point. 00:51:55.718 --> 00:51:59.198 Or like, jQuery, while Query is great, like jQuery is like, okay, 00:51:59.203 --> 00:52:02.108 how do I make the dom, which is, you know, built for computers, 00:52:02.113 --> 00:52:03.698 easier to use, easier to access. 00:52:03.698 --> 00:52:05.108 Like, it's like shorthand at the end of the day. 00:52:05.108 --> 00:52:07.598 Like, and like then you look at React and it's like, oh, this person 00:52:07.598 --> 00:52:09.638 like, built a lot of websites. 00:52:09.643 --> 00:52:10.478 Whoever, I mean, sorry. 00:52:10.718 --> 00:52:13.658 Like the people like, you know, working on Next, like, it's like this person 00:52:13.663 --> 00:52:16.508 like built a lot of websites and when they sat down they weren't like sort, 00:52:16.508 --> 00:52:18.498 go back to like the the ignorance, like the intentional ignorance. 00:52:18.498 --> 00:52:22.488 It's like, it's like, okay, they built something that was. 00:52:22.893 --> 00:52:24.693 You know, made for people who make websites. 00:52:24.744 --> 00:52:27.652 The one that I love, and this is very controversial here at Readme, 00:52:27.652 --> 00:52:29.782 like people, like this is probably the closest thing to a fight. 00:52:29.812 --> 00:52:30.472 Pineapple pizza. 00:52:30.502 --> 00:52:32.783 This is the pineapple pizza of of WebDev is tailwind. 00:52:33.203 --> 00:52:34.373 I love Tailwind. 00:52:34.373 --> 00:52:34.703 Tailwind. 00:52:34.703 --> 00:52:36.083 Like, it. 00:52:36.353 --> 00:52:36.533 It's, 00:52:36.533 --> 00:52:37.433 It's, delightful. 00:52:38.243 --> 00:52:39.653 And some people hate it. 00:52:39.653 --> 00:52:40.283 Some people love it. 00:52:40.283 --> 00:52:43.073 But like, again, that's the, like, the, like nothing about Tawan should 00:52:43.073 --> 00:52:45.653 work because when I first saw Tailwind, I was like, this is the worst. 00:52:45.653 --> 00:52:48.293 It's like CSS, inside html, like 00:52:48.323 --> 00:52:50.333 Matt: it's 47 style or classes. 00:52:50.463 --> 00:52:50.953 Greg: Yeah. 00:52:50.953 --> 00:52:53.603 And like, this is horrible, but like, it's delightful. 00:52:53.608 --> 00:52:55.043 And I love it more than anything. 00:52:55.043 --> 00:52:56.303 Like, it's just, it's so nice. 00:52:56.308 --> 00:52:59.633 And like when I build a full site with it, I don't know. 00:52:59.843 --> 00:53:02.693 But when I build a, like a marketing site or I build, like, you know, 00:53:02.693 --> 00:53:05.653 most of my projects now, like now I go back to writing old css. 00:53:05.653 --> 00:53:06.563 I'm like, I hate this. 00:53:06.568 --> 00:53:07.273 Like, I just miss tailwind. 00:53:07.273 --> 00:53:08.243 I just wanna let be to write my little 00:53:08.273 --> 00:53:08.723 Matt: yeah. 00:53:08.783 --> 00:53:13.107 See I, I've, there's like this there's like this bell curve and there's like, 00:53:13.167 --> 00:53:14.367 there's like a meme associated with it. 00:53:14.367 --> 00:53:18.087 It's like, it's like, you know, hoodie, hoodie, programmer at 00:53:18.087 --> 00:53:20.277 the bottom at the beginning and then hoodie program at the end. 00:53:20.282 --> 00:53:22.317 And then there's like all this stuff happening at the top. 00:53:22.377 --> 00:53:24.597 And I was stuck at the top for so many things. 00:53:24.597 --> 00:53:27.867 Like, you spend so much time contemplating what do I use to build this? 00:53:27.867 --> 00:53:29.247 What do I do this, this, this, that, and the other thing. 00:53:29.247 --> 00:53:31.407 And it's like this easy thing, all the complex things 00:53:31.407 --> 00:53:32.667 like, oh, this one's faster. 00:53:32.667 --> 00:53:33.987 It's like better, you know, whatever. 00:53:33.987 --> 00:53:35.007 More efficient, you know. 00:53:35.127 --> 00:53:37.557 And then there's like back to originally like the easy thing and 00:53:37.557 --> 00:53:38.577 that's like the master programmer. 00:53:38.577 --> 00:53:42.537 And I feel like I, you know, if you look at the top apps in the app store, 00:53:42.537 --> 00:53:46.587 for example, and all my iOS like developer friends are gonna hate me 00:53:46.587 --> 00:53:49.917 saying this, but I think it's true, most of 'em aren't actually native. 00:53:50.397 --> 00:53:50.852 Greg: Yeah. 00:53:51.627 --> 00:53:55.677 Matt: No one, no one who's rating at five Stars cares if your app's native or not. 00:53:55.707 --> 00:53:58.797 They care if it solves the problem for you and that's all they care about. 00:53:58.857 --> 00:53:59.037 Mm-hmm. 00:53:59.327 --> 00:54:03.747 and I started personally, like I went through that like journey of like, oh, 00:54:03.747 --> 00:54:06.507 I gotta build all this stuff, like the hard, the hard way because it's better, 00:54:06.507 --> 00:54:09.627 but it, but it like didn't make me feel better, actually made me feel like 00:54:09.627 --> 00:54:13.167 more stressed and worse and I act and, you know, building this stuff, even 00:54:13.167 --> 00:54:17.133 if it is old tech or if it's you know, sort of like boring tech or whatever. 00:54:17.133 --> 00:54:19.353 If it works and it's easier and to have a good developer 00:54:19.353 --> 00:54:21.303 experience, like I'm all for it. 00:54:21.333 --> 00:54:23.283 Cuz no one at the end of the day is gonna care. 00:54:23.523 --> 00:54:26.253 Like no one cares that GitHub is written in Ruby on Rails unless you work on it. 00:54:26.258 --> 00:54:26.753 Right. 00:54:27.123 --> 00:54:28.023 It's huge. 00:54:28.188 --> 00:54:30.408 Greg: Or unless you're a hacker trying to like overload methods what they 00:54:30.513 --> 00:54:31.473 Matt: sure, sure, sure. 00:54:31.473 --> 00:54:34.143 But you know what I'm saying, like nobody cares what your thing is written in. 00:54:34.233 --> 00:54:34.353 Yeah. 00:54:34.413 --> 00:54:36.153 All they care is like, does it solve the problem for them? 00:54:36.153 --> 00:54:37.473 Does it like make their life better? 00:54:37.623 --> 00:54:38.253 That's it. 00:54:38.583 --> 00:54:41.913 So my advice, I guess, if this is advice. 00:54:43.008 --> 00:54:43.788 Don't get stuck in that. 00:54:43.788 --> 00:54:46.038 Sort of like the paradox of choice of what do I need to use? 00:54:46.043 --> 00:54:48.138 Just like, just just build stuff, right? 00:54:48.138 --> 00:54:49.228 Build stuff that solves problems. 00:54:49.278 --> 00:54:49.518 Greg: Yeah. 00:54:49.538 --> 00:54:52.998 I'm a, I'm a huge fan of like, so like, for a while, like to your 00:54:52.998 --> 00:54:54.678 point, like whenever, be like, what's your favorite language? 00:54:54.678 --> 00:54:56.178 Be like right tool for the right job. 00:54:56.178 --> 00:54:58.778 And now it's like, eh, everything's turing complete. 00:54:58.783 --> 00:55:00.618 Like I'm just gonna use it every simple. 00:55:00.623 --> 00:55:03.348 Like, why I try to like spin up like, you know, 18 different things 00:55:03.348 --> 00:55:06.798 that like to get things right cuz like it's, it goes out of it. 00:55:06.798 --> 00:55:08.268 And like, that's a tough thing to say though. 00:55:08.273 --> 00:55:10.908 Cause like at the same time though, I don't think you should be like, 00:55:11.418 --> 00:55:14.982 You know SSH into your FTP server in order to upload your PHP files. 00:55:14.982 --> 00:55:17.322 Like if you're using modern day php, it's, I've heard it's pretty good at 00:55:17.322 --> 00:55:19.722 this point, but like, there is like, there is something to be said too for 00:55:19.722 --> 00:55:23.502 like, you know, keeping up a little bit because it's like you have to maintain it. 00:55:23.579 --> 00:55:25.169 You like, so there's like stuff like that too. 00:55:25.169 --> 00:55:27.149 It's like, I think there's a distinction between, you're not saying you're 00:55:27.149 --> 00:55:31.409 not a letter, you're not saying, you know, I learned PHP back in 2007 and 00:55:31.409 --> 00:55:32.999 I am doing that till the day I die. 00:55:33.539 --> 00:55:37.072 You're saying that like you're saying that like, you know, you also don't have 00:55:37.072 --> 00:55:38.212 to like always be chasing the cool stuff. 00:55:38.212 --> 00:55:40.882 Like, I think like, what I'm really excited about, so to answer like the 00:55:40.882 --> 00:55:43.252 question, like, what I'm really excited about is like, I think we've gotten to 00:55:43.257 --> 00:55:45.792 this point where like, there's always that like you know, like the, like any sort 00:55:45.792 --> 00:55:46.962 of like, like innovation stuff like that. 00:55:46.962 --> 00:55:50.889 But any sort of like or like the, like adoption what's the, like the ludite? 00:55:50.889 --> 00:55:52.349 The No, what's the laggard? 00:55:52.349 --> 00:55:53.699 Like what's that thing? 00:55:53.724 --> 00:55:54.214 Matt: Yeah. 00:55:54.524 --> 00:55:56.234 You mean the cross, like the the chasm across? 00:55:56.292 --> 00:55:59.052 Greg: No, we're just like saying buzzword at this point, but it's like 00:55:59.052 --> 00:56:00.436 Matt: yeah, you want more buzzwords, 00:56:00.871 --> 00:56:02.731 Greg: but like, it's basically like the way people adopt stuff. 00:56:02.731 --> 00:56:03.871 Like there's something really fun 00:56:03.916 --> 00:56:05.026 Matt: like early adopters, 00:56:05.191 --> 00:56:06.991 Greg: Adopters, laggards is the, yeah, but whatever. 00:56:06.991 --> 00:56:12.901 So I forgot the graph, but like Matt's going to buzz in here with a post recorded 00:56:12.902 --> 00:56:15.531 thing where he says what this is called this, this thing I'm trying to think of. 00:56:15.531 --> 00:56:17.901 But Yeah, so I think there's like, there is something kind of cool 00:56:17.901 --> 00:56:21.411 about watching that, like, that funny cause like will Tailwind be 00:56:21.411 --> 00:56:22.491 what we're writing in five years? 00:56:22.491 --> 00:56:25.611 I have genuinely no clue, but like, whatever it is, we'll 00:56:25.881 --> 00:56:27.081 have learned something from it. 00:56:27.081 --> 00:56:27.321 I do. 00:56:27.321 --> 00:56:27.861 That's kind of cool. 00:56:27.861 --> 00:56:32.481 It's like I, I'm not saying that I would start my new startup with the coolest 00:56:32.486 --> 00:56:36.501 of new technologies, but like on the side it's fun to like spend something 00:56:36.501 --> 00:56:38.211 up and play with it and like, you know, 00:56:39.191 --> 00:56:43.691 say what I like and don't like cuz like that dislike of stuff, like also informs 00:56:43.691 --> 00:56:46.991 like, very few people do something that's kind of semi-popular without there being 00:56:46.996 --> 00:56:48.431 a threat of something interesting in it. 00:56:48.491 --> 00:56:51.341 And ultimate happens is the trade offs become too much. 00:56:51.341 --> 00:56:54.821 Like, and 1.2 I complained about it before, and you 1.2 is phenomenal because 00:56:54.821 --> 00:56:58.694 all of a sudden like You know, it, it was like, it, it just flipped how I 00:56:58.694 --> 00:56:59.864 thought about programming completely. 00:56:59.864 --> 00:57:01.844 J qu was like, you were like constantly modifying the do and 00:57:01.844 --> 00:57:05.264 like it was like html so became like a programming language almost. 00:57:05.264 --> 00:57:06.374 Like I loved it. 00:57:06.494 --> 00:57:08.714 And like there's something really beautiful about that. 00:57:08.744 --> 00:57:11.534 Now the problem was that the trade off was that the maintainability was too hard. 00:57:11.534 --> 00:57:14.024 Like, you know, variables coming from, it was slow. 00:57:14.029 --> 00:57:15.974 Like there was like 50 things that were wrong with it. 00:57:16.214 --> 00:57:18.824 But like, there's something so fascinating with the way it 00:57:18.824 --> 00:57:20.444 flipped how I looked at everything. 00:57:20.744 --> 00:57:23.414 Cause at the end of the way, this is gonna be really nuanced, bear with me. 00:57:23.504 --> 00:57:25.454 Probably not for the end of the podcast, but like there's this 00:57:25.454 --> 00:57:26.853 concept of turning completeness. 00:57:26.869 --> 00:57:28.939 So turning completeness is basically if a language is turning 00:57:28.939 --> 00:57:31.819 complete to like really kind of simplify it, it's that it can. 00:57:32.404 --> 00:57:35.224 Basically do anything that any other programming language can do. 00:57:35.224 --> 00:57:37.684 Like, if it's turning complete, it means that, you know, it all 00:57:37.684 --> 00:57:39.364 gets compiled down to binary. 00:57:39.364 --> 00:57:42.994 And like any turning, complete language can technically do anything that any 00:57:42.994 --> 00:57:46.054 other turning complete language can do to kind of like simplify and boil it down. 00:57:46.054 --> 00:57:50.374 So at the end of the day, whether you're writing angular, I'm writing Java, you're 00:57:50.379 --> 00:57:55.204 writing php, whatever, like it all just, you know, boils down to zeros and ones. 00:57:55.204 --> 00:57:56.854 So you can do everything with each language. 00:57:57.094 --> 00:57:58.714 It's just harder to do some things. 00:57:58.752 --> 00:57:59.622 A lot harder. 00:57:59.772 --> 00:58:02.802 Almost impossible cuz like, you know, there's like other stuff like, you know, 00:58:02.802 --> 00:58:04.347 you can't look PHP on a iPhone like that. 00:58:04.482 --> 00:58:05.082 There's like stuff like that. 00:58:05.087 --> 00:58:06.642 But you could, cuz it's all running. 00:58:06.672 --> 00:58:09.522 Like it's all you could, and when I'm going with this is like 00:58:10.244 --> 00:58:12.702 you're, you can do anything with anything. 00:58:13.212 --> 00:58:13.722 It's just, 00:58:13.722 --> 00:58:16.072 it's more of like the ui, the dx on top of it. 00:58:16.072 --> 00:58:18.387 Like what's easy and like what's you know, easy to do and what's 00:58:18.387 --> 00:58:20.577 harder to do, like what are you fighting against and stuff like that. 00:58:20.577 --> 00:58:23.727 And like, there's something kind of nice about realizing, like any technology 00:58:23.732 --> 00:58:25.287 you pick, you can do anything you want. 00:58:25.527 --> 00:58:26.607 You just wanna like, you 00:58:26.612 --> 00:58:27.267 know, kind of like 00:58:27.297 --> 00:58:31.887 find that perspective where like, you know, PHP and JavaScript, if you were 00:58:31.887 --> 00:58:34.497 to like see the compiled code, you couldn't tell me which one was which 00:58:34.497 --> 00:58:36.927 cuz no one could like, I mean, you could, but like, you couldn't tell me 00:58:36.927 --> 00:58:39.027 by just looking at, it's just zeros and ones and there's no way to really know. 00:58:39.027 --> 00:58:40.047 It's like the server doesn't care. 00:58:40.047 --> 00:58:42.567 The server has no clue what language you're building with. 00:58:42.567 --> 00:58:46.947 And like, again, they def like, and we're, so we're stacking things on top of things. 00:58:46.952 --> 00:58:47.547 On top of things. 00:58:47.547 --> 00:58:50.757 Like if you're doing, you know, react, you're doing reactor compiles into, 00:58:50.757 --> 00:58:54.874 you know, type script compiles, j j JSX, that all compiles into JavaScript, 00:58:54.994 --> 00:58:57.454 which is compiled into like, and just, I don't even know at this point. 00:58:57.454 --> 00:58:59.674 Like what it compiles into is like different run times to different stuff. 00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:01.504 And like, it's, it's so fascinating to me. 00:59:01.504 --> 00:59:02.164 Like it's, it is. 00:59:02.809 --> 00:59:03.439 Ergonomical. 00:59:03.439 --> 00:59:04.999 It's not just, you know, you can do anything. 00:59:05.179 --> 00:59:06.919 It's not like they're inventing new stuff at this point. 00:59:06.919 --> 00:59:09.019 Like everything you can do has been kind of invented. 00:59:09.019 --> 00:59:11.419 It's just like, how do you make it easier to do? 00:59:11.419 --> 00:59:15.739 Like, I kind of feel like this is like a weird way to like end this argument. 00:59:15.744 --> 00:59:17.659 But like, Matt's my new office right now. 00:59:17.685 --> 00:59:20.715 We've been in this office like three years and like we had another office 00:59:20.715 --> 00:59:23.085 that was like downstairs and right around the corner, so it's like the 00:59:23.085 --> 00:59:24.615 same city block, just like around. 00:59:24.975 --> 00:59:28.725 And like when we moved offices, my like experience was so different. 00:59:28.725 --> 00:59:31.455 Like we're still within walking distance of almost the same stuff, 00:59:31.665 --> 00:59:34.875 but like my perspective just shifted on like, oh, okay, like I didn't 00:59:34.875 --> 00:59:36.975 notice this restaurant over here or like, this restaurant's easier. 00:59:37.005 --> 00:59:39.225 Or like, this coffee shop's easier to get to cause I didn't have to cross 00:59:39.225 --> 00:59:40.395 the street here and stuff like that. 00:59:40.395 --> 00:59:43.095 And like, it just, even though I like didn't go very far, it like completely 00:59:43.095 --> 00:59:43.875 changed how I think about stuff. 00:59:43.875 --> 00:59:45.555 And I feel like that's what programming languages can be like. 00:59:46.635 --> 00:59:48.275 And you do the same stuff, but you get a different perspective and 00:59:48.275 --> 00:59:50.805 like all of a sudden it's like, oh, that's easy to do because like I 00:59:50.805 --> 00:59:52.035 can do it now and stuff like that. 00:59:52.035 --> 00:59:54.675 So that's my long rambly answer to 00:59:54.765 --> 00:59:56.985 Matt: programming languages are like moving offices. 00:59:57.015 --> 00:59:58.545 Greg: I dunno what the question was at the beginning, but 00:59:58.755 --> 01:00:00.065 Matt: It was What are you excited about 01:00:01.185 --> 01:00:04.952 Greg: I am excited about I'm excited to make websites now like, because it's just 01:00:05.192 --> 01:00:06.452 a great time to be starting something. 01:00:06.452 --> 01:00:09.422 Like it's a great time to start a new project because like next is so 01:00:09.422 --> 01:00:10.562 good and it's just getting better. 01:00:10.742 --> 01:00:11.552 Matt: Have you tried remix? 01:00:12.442 --> 01:00:13.918 Greg: No, but did you did you say it? 01:00:13.918 --> 01:00:15.993 Cause like when I walked in here everyone else I was looking 01:00:15.993 --> 01:00:17.223 at remix on their web, on 01:00:17.223 --> 01:00:17.343 Matt: their 01:00:17.433 --> 01:00:19.923 Oh, I, I've, I've rebuilt Pickle and remix. 01:00:19.923 --> 01:00:20.703 I've been using it a lot. 01:00:20.703 --> 01:00:21.213 I love it. 01:00:21.303 --> 01:00:21.933 Yeah, I love it. 01:00:22.023 --> 01:00:22.923 Greg: I mean, I don't really care if it's next. 01:00:22.923 --> 01:00:23.523 It doesn't have to be next. 01:00:23.523 --> 01:00:26.583 Like next is just one of my, and again, I don't think, I don't wanna 01:00:26.583 --> 01:00:30.003 like say next is not gonna be around five years, but like, statistically 01:00:30.003 --> 01:00:33.153 speaking, it's not what from five years ago, like, are we still really like 01:00:33.153 --> 01:00:35.463 loving, not using Sure, but like loving 01:00:35.613 --> 01:00:37.533 Matt: what that has, what has JavaScript in it that's still 01:00:37.533 --> 01:00:38.493 around from five years ago? 01:00:40.413 --> 01:00:40.773 new thing. 01:00:41.113 --> 01:00:41.463 Js 01:00:41.553 --> 01:00:41.793 Greg: I mean, 01:00:41.793 --> 01:00:44.494 I still use stuff from five years ago, but I'm not the best the best example. 01:00:44.494 --> 01:00:44.764 But, 01:00:44.884 --> 01:00:45.544 Matt: but you know what I'm saying? 01:00:45.549 --> 01:00:48.504 Like, there's a new thing, there's a new cool thing every, all, all the time. 01:00:48.585 --> 01:00:48.754 Greg: time. 01:00:49.024 --> 01:00:51.934 So I'm just really excited about this like paradigm where like, like building 01:00:51.934 --> 01:00:56.434 tools for like, just like this new layer of like DX on top of stuff get me really 01:00:56.434 --> 01:00:57.799 excited I think whatever that means. 01:00:57.799 --> 01:00:58.729 Like this new way of thinking about 01:00:58.729 --> 01:00:59.299 stuff. 01:00:59.299 --> 01:00:59.749 Matt: Developer experience. 01:00:59.874 --> 01:01:00.209 Yeah. 01:01:00.219 --> 01:01:00.569 So. 01:01:01.369 --> 01:01:03.231 Greg: I dunno if that was I dunno if you wanted me to say like, there's 01:01:03.231 --> 01:01:05.482 a new coffee shop that I like or something like that, but I'm. 01:01:06.307 --> 01:01:08.827 I'd rather like burst again where I'm like back to like learning new 01:01:08.827 --> 01:01:11.347 stuff and like, I'm like, this is such a great time to be learning new 01:01:11.697 --> 01:01:13.337 Matt: I don't think you should stop learning stuff. 01:01:13.379 --> 01:01:13.889 Greg: Agreed. 01:01:13.889 --> 01:01:17.963 But I think like the, the web dev, like the web world over the past 01:01:17.963 --> 01:01:20.063 five years, like you remember those like memes from like five years ago. 01:01:20.063 --> 01:01:22.313 Like, this is how you get started with JavaScript and it's like you 01:01:22.313 --> 01:01:24.773 have to compile through Babel es and like, there's so many stuff. 01:01:24.773 --> 01:01:29.093 And like that sucked, but it pushed everything forward where like 01:01:29.093 --> 01:01:32.213 things happened, JavaScript got better, type script got better. 01:01:32.266 --> 01:01:33.190 Next became a thing. 01:01:33.195 --> 01:01:35.050 Like so much thing like React got better. 01:01:35.050 --> 01:01:37.030 Like React was not great when it started. 01:01:37.035 --> 01:01:37.630 It wasn't bad. 01:01:37.635 --> 01:01:40.630 There was like cool ideas in it, but like Angular and React in my mind were 01:01:40.630 --> 01:01:44.050 pretty similar as far as having cool ideas, but like one built and iterate 01:01:44.050 --> 01:01:46.060 and like did something really cool of, and like, my point there is like, you 01:01:46.060 --> 01:01:51.100 know, you should never stop learning, but like, sometimes it's, sometimes like, 01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:52.720 I think 01:01:52.720 --> 01:01:56.380 web dev, I think like program in general like goes back and forth as a pendulum. 01:01:56.380 --> 01:01:58.180 Like it goes like, you know, very liberal. 01:01:58.180 --> 01:02:01.760 Like it's, it's You know, it doesn't compile like just on the fly, 01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:03.200 everything's magical and all that. 01:02:03.440 --> 01:02:06.081 And then it gets hardened and hardened and hardened as people like Ed, like 01:02:06.260 --> 01:02:08.960 layer like type script on top of JavaScript or like, Ruby was also 01:02:08.965 --> 01:02:12.140 like that, like pendulum shift to like the, like you can just do everything. 01:02:12.140 --> 01:02:12.740 That's all magical. 01:02:12.740 --> 01:02:15.350 But then it's like, okay, well okay, we can't be that magical cuz 01:02:15.350 --> 01:02:16.580 like, there's security concerns. 01:02:16.585 --> 01:02:19.250 You can't be that magical because speed, you can't like, and they 01:02:19.250 --> 01:02:21.980 start like tighten things up and then like the pendulum swings again. 01:02:21.980 --> 01:02:25.130 And like it's, we're at that swinging of the pendulum where it's 01:02:25.130 --> 01:02:26.480 like, oh, now it's really cool. 01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:27.770 Like now it's in a really good spot. 01:02:28.010 --> 01:02:30.650 And then what's gonna happen is like this for new, for me years and like someone 01:02:30.650 --> 01:02:32.240 come up with something like brand new. 01:02:32.240 --> 01:02:34.850 But like, we've taken JavaScript, which has been around forever, 01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:38.000 but like JavaScripts become popular maybe like 10 years ago, 01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:39.180 eight years ago, seven years ago. 01:02:39.193 --> 01:02:42.163 Started to be like, get a little bit of respect cuz like it got, people started 01:02:42.163 --> 01:02:45.403 like rapidly iterating on it and now it's got to a really good point and it's 01:02:45.403 --> 01:02:48.313 gonna keep going that way, but eventually it's gonna go too far and someone's 01:02:48.313 --> 01:02:51.463 gonna come along and start from scratch again and be like, this is amazing. 01:02:51.463 --> 01:02:53.143 It's a new language you've never heard of and it's really simple 01:02:53.148 --> 01:02:54.253 and friendly and fun and like 01:02:54.318 --> 01:02:54.798 Matt: I use Rust. 01:02:55.033 --> 01:02:55.363 Greg: Yeah. 01:02:55.393 --> 01:02:55.693 Well 01:02:55.783 --> 01:02:58.801 I yeah, it could be rust, but I dunno, that's a, that's very high level don't 01:02:58.921 --> 01:03:01.151 really, I could go like more in depth with my, like, thoughts on alt tech, but 01:03:01.171 --> 01:03:04.861 like, I think it's a pendulum and like we're in this really good spot of the 01:03:04.861 --> 01:03:08.251 pendulum and it's gonna get worse at some point and it's gonna get better again. 01:03:08.291 --> 01:03:09.181 And it's gonna get worse again. 01:03:09.181 --> 01:03:10.051 It's gonna get better. 01:03:10.095 --> 01:03:12.959 I kind of like, the jQuery days was like, that was, you know, great. 01:03:12.959 --> 01:03:15.539 That was like peak web dev because like, things were really nice and all it 01:03:15.539 --> 01:03:18.899 all worked, like all these like random ideas came together and started to work. 01:03:19.169 --> 01:03:21.599 Not just jQuery but like, everything like PHP got better. 01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:26.159 Like it just worked and then like it got worse and worse and then 01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:28.079 like, Ruby came along and changed how people thought about stuff. 01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:31.589 Like the express and node came along and how people, it just like, it's every 01:03:31.589 --> 01:03:35.489 few years like it, it just hits this point where everything kind of comes 01:03:35.489 --> 01:03:36.959 together and feels really, really great. 01:03:36.959 --> 01:03:38.399 And I think we're in that spot right now. 01:03:39.659 --> 01:03:40.139 Matt: All right. 01:03:40.409 --> 01:03:41.099 How do we wrap this up? 01:03:42.209 --> 01:03:42.740 ? Greg: I dunno. 01:03:42.767 --> 01:03:44.114 You probably could just cut there. 01:03:44.114 --> 01:03:44.908 Matt: No, no, 01:03:45.133 --> 01:03:45.733 Greg: final question, 01:03:46.108 --> 01:03:46.923 Matt: Final question. 01:03:47.923 --> 01:03:53.953 What startup are you really excited about or what company, new product, new feature 01:03:53.953 --> 01:03:57.613 that's not yours, something new that's out there that you're really excited about? 01:03:57.613 --> 01:03:58.348 It can be anything. 01:04:00.133 --> 01:04:01.153 It doesn't have to be tech. 01:04:01.388 --> 01:04:01.878 I know. 01:04:02.383 --> 01:04:03.703 it can be like a new shoe company or something. 01:04:03.718 --> 01:04:06.538 Greg: Oh, I don't know if it's, so this is, I'm only saying this because 01:04:06.538 --> 01:04:09.768 like I just I was just thinking it was like five minutes ago. 01:04:09.788 --> 01:04:12.068 There's like a new breed of software that I really love. 01:04:12.146 --> 01:04:15.901 Like Superhuman might have been like the first in this, but like, I think Raycast 01:04:15.901 --> 01:04:18.041 is one of the best apps I've ever used. 01:04:18.041 --> 01:04:20.125 And then Linear is the other one, like those two, like they're very, 01:04:20.130 --> 01:04:25.075 like, they're created with like new, like type of software and like 01:04:25.075 --> 01:04:26.455 they're informed by other software. 01:04:26.455 --> 01:04:28.405 Like, it's not like they like came outta nowhere and like, you know, 01:04:28.405 --> 01:04:30.145 build software like out of nowhere. 01:04:30.145 --> 01:04:32.213 But like and I, I'll, you know, I'll probably get bored of it cause like 01:04:32.273 --> 01:04:35.702 linear and superhuman and Ray has like, they all kinda look the same and it's 01:04:35.702 --> 01:04:38.072 like, okay, like at some point it's gonna go out, out of Vog a little bit. 01:04:38.072 --> 01:04:41.702 But like, it just, like, they're different enough from like previous stuff and 01:04:41.702 --> 01:04:43.442 like, I just, they iterate quickly. 01:04:43.562 --> 01:04:43.652 What 01:04:43.662 --> 01:04:46.577 Matt: is it in less than 60 seconds, what is it that you like about 01:04:46.577 --> 01:04:47.417 them that makes 'em different? 01:04:47.417 --> 01:04:50.417 Is it that they, you know, I know that I know a lot of'em are s be fast 01:04:50.417 --> 01:04:51.418 and help you, like, optimize your 01:04:51.872 --> 01:04:52.022 Greg: Yep. 01:04:52.262 --> 01:04:55.502 They're fast, they're opinionated, and they were built by people who really 01:04:55.502 --> 01:04:57.122 understood how people were doing. 01:04:57.122 --> 01:05:00.692 So same as, like I said about next, like, it's like it's, it's, it's clearly 01:05:00.692 --> 01:05:05.042 built by someone who, to your point, uses the product and is like building it for 01:05:05.042 --> 01:05:08.792 themselves and not just for themselves, but like building it for someone 01:05:08.792 --> 01:05:10.082 with the exact same use case they do. 01:05:10.142 --> 01:05:11.822 Realizing that most people have the same use case. 01:05:11.852 --> 01:05:14.360 And it's just, again, it's just, there's really nice software out there 01:05:14.365 --> 01:05:17.344 today and I'm just really excited that I get to use a lot of this Nice 01:05:17.415 --> 01:05:18.735 a lot of this nice software day. 01:05:19.275 --> 01:05:19.665 Matt: Awesome. 01:05:19.695 --> 01:05:20.085 Cool. 01:05:20.385 --> 01:05:23.025 Well, thanks for, thanks for being on the podcast again. 01:05:23.079 --> 01:05:23.409 Greg: Definitely. 01:05:23.409 --> 01:05:23.619 I'll see 01:05:23.709 --> 01:05:25.049 Matt: Any, any shoutouts you wanna 01:05:25.065 --> 01:05:25.259 Greg: do? 01:05:25.309 --> 01:05:26.499 No, I got no shoutouts. 01:05:26.610 --> 01:05:29.250 But I'm always in, so in a year, two years, whatever. 01:05:29.270 --> 01:05:30.540 Matt: Where, where can people follow you? 01:05:30.540 --> 01:05:31.500 Are you on Twitter still? 01:05:31.830 --> 01:05:33.471 Greg: I am on Twitter for now. 01:05:33.500 --> 01:05:37.004 As long as it's solvent just today that he's like, might go bankrupt next week, 01:05:37.094 --> 01:05:37.364 Matt: oh, 01:05:37.394 --> 01:05:37.844 Greg: okay. 01:05:37.844 --> 01:05:38.196 cool. 01:05:38.229 --> 01:05:45.860 But twitter.com, that's t w i t t e r dot c o m slash no, g G k o b e r g e r. 01:05:46.130 --> 01:05:46.520 Matt: Cool. 01:05:46.610 --> 01:05:46.970 Awesome. 01:05:46.970 --> 01:05:47.420 Thanks, Greg. 01:05:47.630 --> 01:05:47.780 Right. 01:05:47.780 --> 01:05:48.050 Greg: Thanks Matt 01:05:48.140 --> 01:05:48.350 Matt: see ya.